In Joseph Tainter’s textbook The Collapse of Complex Societies (New Studies in Archaeology) the author examines the societal and political demise of great societies like the Habsburg Monarchy, the Roman Empire and the Mayans. Failure of long established societies is often attributed to dwindling energy supplies associated with sustained maintenance of “military power out of proportion to the economic base, or in development projects with a marginal payoff…” Collapse, therefore, is blamed on the inability of a society’s leaders to adapt to resource depletion be it a loss of adequate water, agricultural land or manpower.
Tainter explains that societal collapse is rarely this simple, of course, and that today most nations have the reserves to finance some period of diminishing returns. The consequence, however is they are likely to persist down the same path for far too long, or perhaps not long enough. “Here indeed is a paradox: a disastrous condition that all decry may force us to tolerate a situation of declining marginal returns long enough to … develop the new energy source(s) that will be necessary to maintain economic well-being.”
“This research and development must be an item of the highest priority, even if, as predicted, this requires reallocation of resources from other economic sectors, ” writes Tainter. “Adequate funding… should be included in the budget of every industrialized nation.”
The SDAT (Sustainable Design Assessment Team) report suggested much the same when it encouraged citizens to rely less upon resource extraction and to work together to identify and develop more sustainable options. The SDAT also concluded, unequivocally, that county residents want to play a major part in shaping future development decisions and called for broad community meetings.
Sadly, the same groups that helped to bring the SDAT to Coos County want nothing to do with the team’s findings. Instead, the pro-gas BS Oregon, the Bay Area Chamber of Commerce and the Port of Coos Bay want development planning to be held behind closed doors, by invitation only. It’s no wonder they want to hide their plans when you consider that most of the nation no longer has any stomach for fossil-fuels and is eager to embrace sustainable alternatives.
No doubt, one of the strategies discussed in these secret meetings is how to get the public to embrace the Jordan Cove LNG project. We have referred to this in the past as “psy-ops”. If the public knew the extent to which these “leaders” are willing to go to bamboozle the public whatever remaining credibility they may have, after a long history of failures, would be lost.
The most common psy-ops tactics is to perpetuate the illusion of LNG jobs and prosperity. Jordan Cove LNG will bring badly needed jobs, we are promised. Not only do they promise jobs, according to the them LNG is our last and only hope before we suffer complete and total collapse. This is a completely dishonest marketing plan.
As a job maker, LNG is not very efficient. According to the draft EIS, “…about 145 permanent staff would be employed to operate and maintain the LNG terminal and related facilities.” Some of those employees may even be native to Coos County, “…up to 70 percent of the operations and maintenance workforce could be local hires depending on the availability of personnel with the proper training and education.”
Assuming the full 70%, or 100.5 qualified individuals can be found who already reside in Coos County, at a cost of $7 billion we are talking about a $70 million capital expense per local job. Fred Meyer, Farr’s, Dutch Bros all do better than that and don’t take land via eminent domain! The 234 mile pipeline which does take private land using eminent domain and threatens more than 400 delicate rivers and streams will produce a total of five direct jobs.
We are promised hundreds to thousands of indirect jobs, depending upon who is speaking. Indirect jobs aren’t really relevant here because any direct job, it doesn’t have to be LNG, will contribute to the economy. The BlueGreen Alliance, a unique collaboration between unionized steel workers and environmental groups understands this and recognizes the value of a clean, green economy.
Repair America is our campaign to modernize the infrastructure systems we rely on every day both to address climate change and to create good jobs. Repairing these basic systems that we use for transportation, energy, communications, and clean water will both reduce the carbon pollution and greenhouse gases driving climate change and grow economic opportunity for millions of Americans by creating and maintaining quality, family-sustaining jobs.
We’re at a make or break moment for our economy and environment. Infrastructure systems are the backbone of our economy, but we’ve neglected them for too long. Now, pipes under our cities rot away, leaking water or natural gas; roads that are congested cost us billions in lost gas and time and emit even more carbon pollution into our air; and our schools are falling apart, wasting energy and water. All of that both worsens climate change while at the same time making our communities more vulnerable to the impacts of a changing climate—stronger storms, rising sea levels, floods, droughts and more.
Coos County elected officials, unfortunately, do not want to listen to constituents who aren’t also Jordan Cove sycophants. We have at least two and probably three climate science deniers on the Coos County Commission, one of whom actually claims to be a scientist. Worse, the pro-gas contingent are willing to accept or ignore the well documented health risks associated with a LNG terminal rather than begin the community discussions the SDAT revealed are so important to a sustainable future.
Passing the Coos County Right to a Sustainable Energy Future Ordinance this May will, amongst other things, force the fossil-fuel contingent in Coos County to either get out of the way or, gasp, help facilitate the important community discussions regarding sustainability the public so eagerly want to begin.
Let’s also be asking questions about air quality and the lack of it that would follow. Ever hear of acid rain and its effects on agriculture?
Interesting conversations. This project is pretty far along. I think that asking Bob Braddock exactly what those post construction jobs are – the exact number, title, job description and full time/part time pay, is reasonable. Just do it for clarification.
The answer is in the draft EIS. The terminal and power plant require 145 jobs, 70% of which might be local hires IF they can find qualified staff. The pipeline will support 5 jobs over the 234 miles between here and Malin.
‘NATURAL GAS LIQUIDS – NGL’ NGLs are extracted from the natural gas production stream in natural gas processing plants
To prevent liquid dropout, natural gas pipeline companies limit the amount of butane,
pentane and heavier components. LNG plants must remove heavier hydrocarbon
components to prevent freezing in the liquefaction process, and the heavies removed
become a natural gasoline by-product. NGL’s are naturally occurring elements found in natural gas, and include propane, butane and ethane, among others. NGL’s are valuable as separate products and it is therefore profitable to remove them from the natural gas.The liquids are first extracted from the natural gas and later separated into different components.
It takes a high pressure rail car to move propane, normal butane and isobutane. These NGL products, generally referred to as LPGs (liquefied petroleum gasses) have high vapor pressures and must be transported in vessels that can withstand that pressure.
You didn’t think they needed that railroad just to haul logs did you?
No. Finished wood products, organic grain, and other products travel the rail regularly. But not NGLs.
Where have they said they would transport NGLs on the Coos Bay Rail Link? I think you’re just making this up.
And I thought you were in the loop. If this is news to you then your not as informed as I thought you were. Move your further comments to the current thread where your trying to kiss up to Wim and Mary has tongue lashed you. I’m tired of back tracking to see what your posting.
Mark has no political clout. No one will be swayed toward LNG who isn’t already pro-gas and outside of an uncanny gift for irritation I am not sure what purpose he really serves… even the gas people don’t like him.
If I am wasting my time, just like someone bringing a petition that has no chance of passing, it’s mine time to waste, isn’t it?
TR, since you can’t defend your claims, I’ll assume you don’t know what you are talking about. You got nuthin’.
You laughing at that picture is no surprise to anyone. Your record of minimizing the risk to our area falls in line with your ability to laugh off the real dangers of an explosion. Japan got lucky by not experiencing a catastrophic explosion of an LNG plant and you would have us rely on their luck as a promise that it can’t happen here. Now that’s laughable. How much do you know about the rail tankers they will be sending up and down the Coos Rail Link? The risk of a deadly train derailment comes with JCEP to all the people who live near the tracks between here and Eugene and then that risk will be put on the rest of Oregon as those lucrative liquid gas products are shipped both directions on a antiquated rail system. You can laugh that off as well I’m sure.
As you said earlier, you can hope the democrats don’t get the blame just the credit for bringing the JCEP to Oregon. You are already accomplishing that. The republicans will give you the credit and the rest of us will give your democrats the blame. Your helping to make sure that will happen.
I know there is nothing I can say to you that would change your mind. Engaging you here does one thing only. It helps to show these locals what the democrats have become, or at least the ones in charge. I am surprised that the local democrats have accepted your leadership and that you are still sitting in that chair. That alone demonstrates what the democrats have become. The republican light party.
TR said: How much do you know about the rail tankers they will be sending up and down the Coos Rail Link?
Nothing. What are you talking about?
Here’s a nice view of what the skyline from North Bend could look like if JCEP gets built.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/jpq03111/j15_RTR2JQXZ.jpg
Cosmo Oil Refinery Fire
The Cosmo Oil Company’s refinery in Japan’s Ichihara, Chiba Prefecture, caught fire during the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake. As it burned, several pressurized liquified propane gas storage tanks exploded into fireballs, one in particular being the largest fireball over Japan since the bombing of Nagasaki.
Or you could watch this small Hunan LNG tanker explosion on utube to see how LNG explodes.
On 6 October 2012, a derailed tanker car filled with 20 tons of liquified natural gas ruptured, causing a white gas cloud to expand for 25 seconds across an adjacent highway before reaching an ignition source. The resulting explosion and shock wave killed five and demolished two fire engines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLGM_2l0zok
We won’t need to worry if our future LNG accident is caused by a tsunami, earthquake, accident or an act of terrorism. The results will be the same. Everyone in the area will be dead.
Yeah OK, so let’s not build an oil refinery right beside the JCEP. I’m down with that. Also, let’s not ship out LNG on rail cars. I’m good with that too. But let’s not forget what happened when an actual LNG terminal was hit by a real live earthquake and tsunami. No explosion. No one died. Damaged, repaired, and back on line. More were built by an extremely safety conscious nation.
Forgive me, but your photo made me lol. I’d be surprised if hyperbolic hysteria is persuasive for many folks. Maybe I’ll post some plane crash photos later.
But seriously, if you’d like to read something I found persuasive and influential, give this a try. It is the evolving perspective of science by two environmental scientists. Interesting stuff.
http://thebreakthrough.org/index.php/journal/past-issues/issue-2/love-your-monsters
Mark was recently on this site advocating that we support Bernie Sanders for president. Do you think he really meant it? Read what Bernie says about FF’s and then consider what mark wants us to do. They are the opposite. For Mark to support Bernie Sanders he would have to turn against JCEP.
Electing Bernie would have a devastating effect on all these plans to export gas. Do you believe Mark really wants us to support Bernie Sanders for president after you read what Bernie has to say about building more FF infrastructure.
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/12/29/fight-our-progressive-vision
Yes. We believe that the scientific community is right. Climate change is real, is caused by human activity and is already creating devastating problems in the United States and throughout the world. We believe that the United States can and must lead the world in transforming our energy system away from fossil fuels and into energy efficiency and sustainable energy. No. We do not believe that it makes sense to build the Keystone pipeline or other projects which make us more dependent on oil and other fossil fuels.
That last paragraph was from Bernie. Mark will probably agree with that statement if and after we allow JCEP the right to build that bomb.
He won’t care for these facts I’ve posted below and he will now get busy telling us all how safe it will be. He will tell us that the LNG industry has a perfect safety record and we have nothing to worry about concerning safety. I know ahead of time that he will try to minimize these dangers we would face with more industry rhetoric.
The Amount of Gas Released From Just One LNG Tanker Accident Would Be 20 Times Greater
Than The Amount of LNG That Incinerated One Square Mile of Cleveland in 1944.
Cosmo Oil Refinery Fire,
The Cosmo Oil Company’s refinery in Japan’s Ichihara, Chiba Prefecture, caught fire during the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake. As it burned, several pressurized liquified propane gas storage tanks exploded into fireballs, one in particular being the largest fireball over Japan since the bombing of Nagasaki. A picture of this explosion can be seen here.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/jpq03111/j15_RTR2JQXZ.jpg
The area in this picture of the explosion looks similar to Coos Bay, near the airport. Mark will quickly point out that this explosion was LPG not LNG. I would make that difference comparison to burning regular gas in your car or unleaded.,
Hunan LNG tanker explosion http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2215786/Deadly-gas-tanker-explosion-caught-tourist-s-video-camera.html
On 6 October 2012, a derailed tanker car filled with 20 tons of liquified natural gas ruptured, causing a white gas cloud to expand for 25 seconds across an adjacent highway before reaching an ignition source. The resulting explosion and shock wave killed five and demolished two fire engines. This was a small leak.
Mark will be cheering for Jeb or Hillary before he would ever back Bernie Sanders. JB or HC, take your pick, both of them are owned by the FF people and both of them will agree to work hard to build the JCEP for the FF industry.
Mark says he has no objection to letting the voters decide if they want the JCEP, but if that were true he wouldn’t be here trying to punch holes in the proposal.
If you want to know what Mark thinks, you could just ask him.
Yes, I will absolutely support Bernie Sanders should he run for president. He’s doing it the right way, bringing a progressive agenda to the Democratic Party a la Howard Dean. I think Sanders would win his home state of Vermont, and he’d have a good shot at winning Oregon. The rest of the map will be tough — maybe Massachusetts, Minnesota, or Washington. Outside shot in California and New Mexico. The remaining states are bleak.
However, as a way of pushing a progressive agenda forward, it’s well worth doing. Should the impossible happen and Sanders wins the nomination, how about Jeff Merkley as a running mate? He’d be great. Let’s not get all worked up though. It’s a long shot. Dean had superior infrastructure and mojo and he hit a ceiling. By that I mean despite the abundant polling in favor of progressive issues that Sanders rightly points to, the great “sleeping giant” progressive majority that Sanders thinks is out there just waiting for a real progressive to show up, is just not there. If it were, it would have elected Howard Dean. Instead, it couldn’t even nominate him. But Sanders and his message are important. He has my support, not just my vote but also my contributions and volunteer hours.
If elected would Sanders curb the export of LNG? Possibly, but not necessarily. He opposed the Keystone Pipeline and so do I. But as I’ve argued here many times, global LNG energy is a key component in the fight against climate change. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Sanders embrace this view. The NYTimes has written extensively about this subject. Here’s a good overview piece.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/23/science/natural-gas-abundance-of-supply-and-debate-.html?action=click&contentCollection=Energy%20%26%20Environment%20&module=RelatedCoverage®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article
At the end of the day though, we will likely have the choice of Hillary or a Republican. Even though Hillary is not my favorite candidate, it’s not a difficult choice. Like Obama, how much Hillary is able to do or not do will be influenced by what she has to work with. If she has a right wing Congress down the street, she will have no path to enacting any kind of progressive agenda, even a watered down one. In truth, a President Sanders would face the same dilemma. As I’ve said a million times, there’s a difference between good policy and possible politics. We can make progress, but it won’t happen tomorrow.
“Because anyone with half an eye open for the last three decades knows we need ‘em, and we need ‘em bad.” MarkM
Unfortunately you cannot answer; Why?
Your posts are based on assumption and the theology of the free hand of the market. That is not uncommon in this county, expressed most vehemently by those with something to gain, or at least they think they do.
When I bother to scan the local rag I am often surprised by the many notices of meetings for the Republican bent, often weekly. But I can’t remember ever seeing a notice for a local Democratic meet-up, never mind several in a month. Perhaps something posted that isn’t more than two years old regarding a Democratic party meet-up is due. Perhaps there could be a real revival meeting to discuss the basis of your theology.
Why do we need jobs? Because nearly a century of resource extraction has run its course, automation has replaced much of our county’s labor, and world markets have shifted making both our products and our people less profitable. Time to diversify.
I’ve erred if I’ve given the impression that I hold to a belief in a free hand in the marketplace. I do think that markets are very powerful. It is much easier — possible, even — to effect change using markets rather than by fighting them. Markets are a human creation and as such should be set, defined, and controlled for human benefit. We are responsible for enacting strong regulations to ensure that markets work the best they can to improve people’s lives, to build healthy communities, and to make our nation strong. This is a difficult process and always full of compromise.
You make an excellent suggestion, Tony. The Coos County Democrats definitely need to have more casual meet-ups. What kind of a gathering would you attend? Lunch? Dinner? Snacks? Morning? Afternoon? Evening? Public venue? Central Labor Hall? Weekday? Weekend? I can’t promise a discussion of theology, but I’m sure a lively discussion of politics could be arranged. I think it would be great fun. Please let me know.
markmckelveyshow@gmail.com
That is a lot of non sequiturs. I’m not sure I want to expend much energy trying to guess what you may mean. Perhaps I’ll look again when I’m not tired…
Why would anyone object to deciding the Jordan Cove matter democratically?
I don’t know about everyone, but I don’t have a problem with it. Direct democracy, however, is not a panacea for our political problems. I believe electing the very best people we can and letting them make decisions on our behalf is a much better way to go. It’s the only way to make long-range plans, avoid reactionary decisions, and make difficult choices. Direct democracy can be a clunky way to run a government. Can you imagine if we had to take a vote every time a new business came to town? Or named a street? Or considered a contract? That is not to say the will of the people is not important. It is a primary concern. Elected officials who ignore it should be shown the door.
However, the JCEP is a larger proposition than naming a street. And communities in the past have been successful occasionally keeping Walmarts out of their neighborhoods. Maybe the JCEP merits a direct vote. As I’ve said from the very beginning of the petition discussion, I think the evidence is very clear that the will of the people in Coos County has been followed with regard to the JCEP. Through many proxy votes over the last decade voters have given the JCEP a wink and a nod. There’s never, ever been a candidate to actively run against LNG, and the only candidate for any county office — Mike Beilstein in CD 4 — received only about 1% of the vote. There is definitely an anti-LNG faction in Coos County. It has been well-organized and it’s voice has been loud. But it is far, far from a majority. Coos County voters have repeatedly told us this. If you only care to listen.
But if you want a definitive answer, go ahead with the petition and ask. I’m sure you know what you’ll do if voters say Yes. But what if they say No?
If Mary is able to bring her petition to the ballot box, I think you will see that the FF industry has a lot of “plants” out there just like me. Either that or a whole bunch of people in Coos County think the JCEP is a pretty good idea. About 75% of them, I’d guess.
OK, my conclusion is that you are promoting the wrong thing and you think a non-profit can handle tax dollars better than the government. You are a plant for the FF people and you promise that we will work on infrastructure projects “after” we develop more FF infrastructure. I get it.
Its not as complicated as you want it to be. Yes, Wim does work with you on a different level than I do. His comments do show how your silly attempts to make it look like he agrees with you on his level should be your embarrassment. Where mine are designed to show a different side of yourself and the party you represent. The two faces of Eve come to mind. Thanks for participating in this social workshop. I’m sure the others reading this have seen enough to make up their own minds by now, if there really are people still studying this issue to try to understand both sides, not phony posers like Kitzhaber who is still telling the Oregonian that he can’t decide if its a good thing or a bad thing, to those few that may really be questioning this, pay attention and read more stories that Mary provides links to on this site.
Yes its obvious, YOU do need those jobs very badly. So bad that you have decided to sacrifice your personal reputation by coming here and acting like a spoiled brat to our host. You must need them very bad if your willing to drag the rest of your party down with you by representing them the way your doing.
The rest of us would be happy with those infrastructure repair jobs your party leader Obama has been suggesting we focus on instead of more dangerous, unneeded pipelines for exporting fracked gas and oil.
So now we have made a complete circle around your inflated 800 full time family wage jobs and We have your own party leader saying we could instead produce millions of jobs rebuilding our nations infrastructure. He wants America to push on the republicans to make it happen, but he forgot to tell us that we have to push your party just as hard or harder because of people like you blocking the path. Its easy to see where your priorities and loyalties lie and its not with our nation or with our county and its people. Its with the FF industry and you work for them while you hide behind the good name that your party once had. It doesn’t take a scientist to see what your climate is made of and your making it worse for yourself and your party by representing the democrats this way, just like exporting LNG through Oregon would do more harm to the climate that the rest of us need bad..
Do I seem to be encouraging you to proceed with your self destruction?
Guilty.
I’m not blocking a darn thing. If you know a way to bring infrastructure spending to Coos County, I’m all about it. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for Republicans to fund it though. If you want that kind of thing to happen, you’re going to have to elect more Democrats. Furthermore, increased infrastructure spending does not preclude the JCEP. This is not a zero sum game. We can do both. We should do both. In fact, the JCEP gives us a funding instrument — the Community Enhancement Plan– to actually pay for some of the infrastructure you’d like to build. On the other hand, you offer no funding possibilities for anything apart from wishes and dreams. Real dollars are better.
You’re conflating the Keystone XL pipeline with the JCEP. These are two very different projects. Pres Obama is correct to point out that the job creation of the Keystone is not very great, especially within the context of the national economy. National infrastructure building would obviously be a much greater economic stimulus, as well as an invaluable investment in our country. I support it wholeheartedly. Like Pres Obama, I am not too wild about the Keystone pipeline. This is very dirty, high carbon oil. It is very bad for the climate and unlike NG it does not replace coal or other dirtier fossil fuels. It’s about the dirties fossil fuel there is. Not only that, we’re not exactly running out of oil right now. We’re swimming in it. We don’t need more. The economic analysis that Wim de Vriend did in his recent post applies more directly to the Keystone project than it does to the JCEP, imo. If the Keystone ever does get approved (and I think it will not get Pres Obama’s approval at the end of the day) it may never be built anyway because the market economics that support it will have evaporated. NG is a different commodity and a different market. And it’s much better for the climate.
That said, the positive economic impacts of the JCEP on Coos County are completely independent of the Keystone pipeline. And those positive economic impacts have yet to be refuted. Especially here.
Here’s a news flash for you, TR — Mary doesn’t protect my right to free speech. The Constitution of the US does that, thank you very much. However, Mary could do us both a favor by explaining exactly how LNG jobs, all 800 of them, are an illusion. Her attempts thus far are feeble. Your attempts are non-existent. Or maybe you both could retract the statement.
As I said before, you can argue those LNG jobs are no good. You can argue Coos County is better off without those LNG jobs. But you cannot argue that those LNG jobs do not exist. They do. And if you want people to sign your petition, you’d better be ready to explain why Coos County doesn’t need those LNG jobs. Because anyone with half an eye open for the last three decades knows we need ’em, and we need ’em bad.
Lets look back at what you said and try to determine if you may have overstepped your commenting privileges. You said she plays fast and loose with the facts and you said she shouldn’t be allowed to make stuff up in a public forum, especially when she positions her opinions as “news.”, and you said that Mary is constantly posting assertions, assumptions, and allegations here that are absolutely untrue.
With that last statement you called her a habitual liar and you believe she must put up with that rudeness from you to protect your free speech. There is a limit to how much freedom you should expect when your in someones house as a visitor, even I know that much without knowing your version of the truth.
You cease to amaze me. You think that getting yourself banned for being rude to the host is restricting your right to free speech. Damn your arrogant. You can be rude to me as I can to you, but I would never expect Mary to put up with me being rude to her like you do. You must think being the Coos County Democratic chair gives you leeway with everyone, even those hosting and receiving your personal attacks. Maybe if you apologize to her she will let you keep abusing her to protect your right to free speech. I wonder if your capable of doing that.
It’s chilling how quickly and easily you agree to restricting free speech to only those who agree with you. You’d adjust well to a totalitarian state.
When you’re ready to discuss the issues at hand, I’m at the ready.
Yea, you may get yourself banned, on purpose as an escape route for sticking your foot in your mouth. Al was the only one to get banned, that I know of. He was a foaming republican accusing her of things like your doing. You two seem to be cut from the same cloth, just across the isle from each other. He’s feeling pretty good about his future prospects as long as he thinks JC is going to get built. Not only does he plan to sell more harleys to the out of town workers, he gets to help control the purse strings to money that should become taxes if it gets built. I can see why you both have been going after Mary. If her blog succeeds you both have a lot to lose, just not as much as the victims of your success should you win. I could understand if she does decide to rid her site of such rude behavior towards the host. I can’t say I’ll miss you if she does. I sure don’t miss Al. Yea, your definitely on a path to get yourself banned. You’ll just have to try a little harder.
Don’t worry Kay and TR, I’m sure I’ll be banned soon. That’s what happens when you ask the wrong questions.
Now your saying that Mary believes what she is posting and that makes it true. You just think she’s wrong. You also admitted that I didn’t make anything up, you just don’t think I know the truth.
You think we should defend what Mary writes to you because she won’t give you any attention. These are the reasons your giving us for coming here and acting like a brat. You are giving her readers a reason to keep coming back. They must find it amusing to see you talk out both sides of your face in one single thread. lol, Your one of the best attractions she can offer to her readers to help show the mindset of the FF democrats. I can see why she allows you to spurt and spin yourself trying to get her attention. She knows it drives you nuts to be ignored and that makes you reveal even more information for her readers to digest. I guess you either can’t see it or you just don’t care that your helping our side with your postings. Either way I’m happy with these results.
Enough with the psycho-babble! Do you have something to contribute to the debate or not?
…although I do admit to increasing the MGx web traffic. Merry Christmas!
Is Mary lying? As I said above, I honestly don’t know. To know if someone is lying you have to prove they are willfully telling an untruth. I don’t know that. I totally believe that Mary thinks what she is posting is the truth. But I do think that Mary is wrong. And I say so. But all you two, TR and TG, can do is attack me. You don’t defend Mary’s positions. And neither does Mary.
That speaks volumes.
If you want to discuss the issues, I’ll be around.
Calling Mary a liar now Mark? Seriously? Specific lies? Is that slander?
You did it. You covered a lot of the issues I was barking about., you didn’t convince me with those same old answers, but you did try to put them to bed. Good for you.
We finally got you to answer why you are after this site, mission accomplished.
We have you giving all the credit for JCEP coming to town to the democrats, mission accomplished.
We understand that the democrats believe the rewards for some are worth the risks to all.
The rest of what you said was drivel, but I’m satisfied that you tried to give some answers to some of the problems that come with JCEP, and we didn’t even have to touch on the fracking issues.
To sum it up, you come here to expose Mary because she knows enough about the truth to tell a lie and she is constantly posting assertions, assumptions, and allegations here that are absolutely untrue and the democrats are absolutely why this project is staying alive and they are proud of it. We are finally making some headway. Since you have proved my assertions about your goals here, I will try to leave you alone and quit picking at you. Now maybe all the locals and all the people in the path of this project will start thinking like you, but I doubt it. Time will tell if there will be a price to pay for these democrats you espouse.
First of all, I think Mark has taken his dislike for the truth,aka Mary, to an unacceptable level today, perhaps he fell off his gravy train? I’ve known Mary long enuff to know she does not hate, even when warranted, so shut the hell up with the hate speech douche. Why don’t you just tell us why that burr is so far up your arse Mark? And what do you have to say about the great piece Sickinger just put up on the 19th in the Oregonian? I’m wonderinG what Caddy knows about burying comtam. Soil in berms out on the spit, and when she knew about it? Please find out for us, will you Skippy? She is your guy after all, please be quick with that info? Run along now or Reminder will, once again , hand your whiney ass back to you. It’s such a joy to watch, so ignore that while I get some popcorn. You’re flailing again Mark, Mama needs to lock up her computer when she gets home from her job methinks.
Hey Kay,
If you are determined to bring my wife into this discussion, by all means, PLEASE, give her a call.
541-267-5151 ext 386
By all means, PLEASE, post what she has to say. Failing that, I guess you’ll just have to talk to me. And, harder still, defend the slop that Mary is shoveling.
Otherwise, to use your own vernacular, STFU.
What part of what I said is made up? Be specific and while your at it, tell us how your inflated job numbers are more important than all the lives that will be negatively impacted by this project. How do you measure all your rhetoric against all the negatives we know will happen if you get to build it?
Why should we trust you and your circle jerk like your asking, when the science tells us to do the opposite? Why do you come here always looking for a fight? Always trying to prove to us that we need JCEP to survive, How have we made it this last dozen years without JCEP?
You accuse me of making things up, when its you making up glorious numbers of jobs out of thin air. Do you know how many time we have seen those numbers grow , just to promote this scam? I’ve lost count.
Do you think the democrats are winning more converts by taking this pro-FF position? Do you think you will ever try to answer all the negative aspects this project represents? No you will just accuse me of making things up.
Don’t forget the timber/tourism and other jobs lost due to LNG and the pipeline. The NET job gain/loss is still unclear but looking at other regions dependent upon oil and gas for their livelihoods the numbers don’t look good.
I seriously doubt the JCEP will harm tourism a whit. There may be some folks who anecdotally claim to avoid visiting Coos County because of the JCEP, but I’d wager that number is negligible if not nil. There may be some tourist excursions on the North Spit that are impacted (out of fear, not access) but economically speaking these impacts will be negligible or nil. The North Spit is not a significant tourist destination for CB/NB. All the other tourist attractions that people come to Coos County for will be unaffected by the JCEP. Especially after it’s built and has been operational for a few years without incident. No one will care when they are planning out their vacations. People vacation in Boston all the time and there is an LNG facility right in the middle of the harbor. Big whoop. They still come for the Freedom Trail, the Red Sox, and Old Ironsides. No one cares.
There will be some timber land that is forfeited to the pipeline. But this is a trade Coos County should make every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Neither our timber production nor the attendant jobs will be affected because there will still be plenty of other forests to harvest. Economically speaking, this is a HUGE win for Coos County. Timber hasn’t been all that great for Coos County in the last thirty years, or hadn’t you noticed?
The net gain/loss of jobs is most certainly clear — it’s a HUGE gain. No two ways about it. And it’s a false comparison to say Coos County will become DEPENDENT upon oil and gas for its livelihood. All the other things that we have going on in the Coos County economy will still be going on. In fact, the economic impact of the JCEP will make possible many new ventures that will render our economy even MORE diverse than it is today. For one thing, the JCEP ensures that the lower Coos Bay will be maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers making Coos Bay and Charleston a commercial/industrial port for all kinds of new shipping and warehousing opportunities, just as the SDAT had recommended.
The economic impacts of the JCEP are stunningly positive for Coos County. It has never had a better business opportunity. Ever.
I don’t think you’re making anything up. You don’t know enough about the truth to tell a lie. But Mary is. She is constantly posting assertions, assumptions, and allegations here that are absolutely untrue. Since she rarely defends herself when challenged, I will assume she is just misinformed rather than deliberately spreading untruths. She passionately believes in catching her White Whale (stopping the JCEP) so it’s understandable that she will be tempted to play fast and loose with the facts. But she shouldn’t be allowed to make stuff up in a public forum, especially when she positions her opinions as “news.” So it’s up to people like me to set the record straight. That’s why I’m here. As the late, great Michael Jackson used to say, “I’m a lover, not a fighter.”
As for some of your concerns that you claim I never address, let me tick off a few. By science, I assume you’re talking about climate change. I’ve addressed that issue many times. In sum, I fervently believe that the JCEP is an important part of the solution to the serious problem of GLOBAL climate change. I’ve had this very conversation with Bill Bradbury numerous times and he freely concedes the point. You don’t have to be a climate change denier to approve of this project. You do, however, have to hold a very simplistic view to believe all those in favor of the JCEP are climate change deniers. The real world is a much more complicated place.
The jobs figures come from serious, uncontroversial economic studies of the JCEP and objective analysis of its economic impact. There is nothing new about studies of this nature. They are accurate and ubiquitous.
I’m not sure who it is you think will be negatively impacted by the JCEP or the pipeline. Claims about eminent domain persist, but there is not a single person who has come forward with a complaint about ED. The only people I’ve heard complaining are those who don’t think they are getting enough money. They problem they have is not with the pipeline; it is with their cut of the profit. That’s an old story. The last pipeline we build had the same claims. Yet when it was all said and done, how many times was ED used? None. Zero. Nada. And believe me, if any landowner has a legitimate pipeline claim, two US Senators, two US Congressmen, and six state representatives and twelve county commissioners are anxious to jump to their defense. You’re not pointing to tragedy here; you’re pointing to crocodile tears.
As for the “burn zone,” you inflate the actual risk and forget the lessons of Fukushima. Yes, I suppose given a perfect storm of the most unlikely events, an accident could happen at the JCEP. But accidents also happen in cars, yet people drive them. Planes crash, yet people ride in them. Boats sink, yet people fish in them. Natural gas explodes, yet people cook and heat with it in their homes. Risk is a part of life. But what is the real risk? Not very high. An LNG plant is safer than a car. It’s safer than a plane. It’s safer than a boat. It’s even safer than the natural gas in your home. I’m not making this up. Check the safety record. These plants are about as safe as they come. Do you know when the last LNG accident was on a ship? Never. There’s NEVER been one. Do you know when the last accident was at a US plant? WWII. And that’s the only one. This is not new technology. It’s not even very complicated. We know how to do it and we’ve done it for decades with a nearly perfect safety record. If you really want to keep the “burn zone” folks safe, you should go door to door and collect up their handguns. That’s a much more serious risk to their health.
Even so, shouldn’t we avoid a risk with such grave consequences regardless of how small it may be? Here’s where we can learn from Fukushima. The earthquake and tsunami that devastated the nuclear power plants at Sendai, Japan hit a nearby LNG import terminal with even greater intensity. The plant suffered severe damage. It was knocked off line and shut down. How many people were killed in this disaster? Zero. How many explosions were there? Zero. What happened to the people in the “burn zone”? Nothing. The plant needed extensive repairs, but within weeks it was up and running again. The Japanese economy needed NG more than ever because they needed to replace the electricity they lost by shuttering all of their nuclear power plants. In fact, Japan built even MORE LNG terminals and has burned more NG ever since. Why? They know that NG is a safe, cheap, clean way to provide power to people, and that LNG terminals are a perfectly safe way to get it there. These folks know what disasters look like. They also know that LNG terminals are nothing to be afraid of.
So, do we need the JCEP to survive? No, we can continue to live hand to mouth for the next dozen years just like we have struggled along in the last dozen years. Maybe the last few decades in Coos County have been rosey for you, but in a county with record levels of poverty, drug abuse, domestic violence, hunger, homelessness, and dilapidated infrastructure, it hasn’t been so great for most of us. That’s why people have left Coos County in droves since the 1980s. Is the JCEP a “savior”? No, of course not. While it’s a fantastic economic opportunity for Coos County, it won’t be enough. But it is a HUGE step in the right direction. And it’s the best thing to happen to this county since 1979, if not ever.
Do I think I will win converts to the Democratic Party by posting here or arguing for the case of JCEP? That doesn’t even cross my mind, although I generally think that if people know what’s good for them, they will register as Democrats, imperfect though the party may be. And if Democrats are instrumental in bringing the JCEP to Coos County, I do not think they will get the blame. But I do hope they get the credit.
Any other questions?
You have resorted to old tactics by trying to compare the risk of LNG to a car ride or a boat ride. Don’t forget to compare it to one of our local gas stations, that’s always been one of the “equivalent” comparisons your side likes to use when examining our risk. Your sense of scale is astonishing and it made absolutely no sense the first time it was used 10 years ago.
Local gas stations!?!?!! You don’t go to those things, do you? They can blow up, don’t ya know? (Happens on TV all the time . . . )
The only thing I’m “hell bent” on is having an open, honest debate. Let’s not make things up, OK?
One things for certain. Mark is hell bent on selling JC to the devil himself even if it costs him his own soul along the way. Now 800 full time family wage jobs is what he promises Coos County , in exchange we agree to forcibly taking your neighbors land for the pipe line and lowering your neighbors property values if they live anywhere near any part of this project and asking, no demanding that 16,000 people live in a newly designated burn zone. What part of that deal smells? All of it.
He’s full of all kinds of promises that he expects us all to be happy about. Do you think these democrats will ever address the negative sides of their grand plan, or even put their democratic chair persons promises in writing along side all the apology’s they owe to this projects victims if it gets built. No they won’t.. He’s just spewing the same old rhetoric, but this time he seems to have a fire under his tail. Maybe his bosses are getting impatient that he can’t sell this to anyone anymore. He has done us all a big favor, he has exposed these corrupt democrats that refuse to change course to everyone, even their own party members that had no idea the democrats were all-in for JC are having to face the facts. The democrats own this and we will keep getting more of the same from them until the democratic sheeple wake up and revolt against their own party. It may not happen here, to these blue-dog democrats, but its already having an eroding effect on the rest of the country’s democrats. This chapter just has to play catch-up.
Obama just told the American public that we could have a lot more jobs rebuilding our infrastructure, than we will ever get building pipelines, like the KXL or the pacific connector. Maybe Mark will get the memo before he herds this local chapter completely over the cliff.
Mark has been selling this JCP as our savior for years, he probably came to this area just for that reason, but he will always avoid the reality of the people this project will harm. Watch and see.
The thing about those stubbornly persistent LNG jobs is that they are, well, stubbornly persistent. No matter how you run them down, they refuse to go away. One hundred and forty five good paying jobs is nothing to sneeze at. That’s the equivalent of adding something with the economic impact of North Bend Medical Center to our community. Imagine that. Or imagine what our community would be like without the economic impact that NBMC brings us.
It’s no more surprising that most of the highly educated professionals operating the JCEP will come from outside Coos County, than it is that most of the highly educated professionals at NBMC come from outside Coos County. We need these kind of folks in Coos County. But if you are unemployed in Coos County and have no education and no skills, you have bigger problems than any industrial project can fix, green or otherwise.
On the other hand, if you are a skilled, educated Coos County worker, you go right to the front of the line. And it’s quite a line. In addition to the 145 direct jobs at the JC facility, JC is funding 54 indirect jobs in the public and private sector. Furthermore, the JC facility will spend money in Coos County, creating upwards of 400 indirect jobs. These jobs will consequently induce about 200 more jobs in Coos County due to increased economic activity. That’s close to 800 permanent, family-wage (or better) jobs in Coos County. And that doesn’t include the 2500 good paying construction jobs to keep our union brothers and sisters working for over three years. That kind of economic development will have a HUGE positive impact on our community. It’s the best anti-poverty program there is and we desperately need it.
You can argue that you don’t like these jobs. You can argue we’d be better off if these jobs never come here. But you cannot argue that these jobs don’t exist. They are no illusion. Neither can you argue that other alternatives are not being considered or are being ignored. Nothing of this economic scope or scale is anywhere close to reality for Coos County. It is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
That’s the only “dishonest marketing campaign” going on here.
Clean, green infrastructure jobs sound great. Coos County could sure use some updating and investment in its transportation, energy, communication, and water systems. We have a long list of projects. All we need is one thing.
The money to pay for it.
Where do you propose we go to get it?
Bring back the SDAT? Well OK, although I think it’s odd MGx would want that.
The SDAT loves the Port, which MGx hates.
The SDAT loves the railroad, which MGx hates.
The SDAT loves the airport, which MGx hates.
The SDAT loves Bandon Dunes, which MGx hates.
The SDAT encourages bird watching tourism and watershed management, i.e., Bandon Marsh expansion, which MGx hates.
The SDAT loves SCDC, which MGx hates.
The SDAT loves industrial development like mining, which MGx hates.
The SDAT loves the Mill Casino, which MGx hates.
The SDAT loves the Chamber of Commerce, which MGx hates.
The SDAT loves urban renewal, which MGx hates.
The SDAT also loves consolidating CB & NB, which everyone (especially ‘Benders) hates.
The truth is many of the SDAT recommendations have either been tried or are already in place. The Egyptian Theatre has been saved; The Coos Historical Museum has been built; The CB & NB Wine Walk has been a phenomenal success, for just a few examples. Value-added wood products, organic agriculture, carbon credits — we got ’em. There’s not too much new insight in the report.
The SDAT advises to keep the 3 E’s in balance — Environment, Equity, and Economy. None of these can succeed without the other two being strong and healthy. I would submit the focus on MGx is way too heavy on the first two E’s with the Economy either ignored or given lip service.
The SDAT advises a mix of industrial, commercial, and residential development. It recommends low impact, advanced technology manufacturing. That’s great. As soon as some low impact, advanced technology manufacturing companies decide to bring investment dollars to Coos County, I have no doubt they will be welcomed with open arms.
The SDAT also acknowledges that the North Spit is zoned for industrial uses and it should be considered for such enterprises. The SDAT doesn’t address the JCEP directly, but nothing in its report would preclude development of the project. In fact, the JCEP is exactly the kind of industrial project that can be developed in Coos County in harmony with other uses such as eco-tourism, agriculture, fishing, logging, mining, light manufacturing and shipping. It is the mix that is important. That is a key point of the SDAT report.
It’s a point that MGx either missed or doesn’t want to hear.
Mary, who is that guy flipping the bird in the picture above? What’s the back story of SDAT? Thanks for your thoughtful research and links. I think one of the things that makes me most angry about Veresen et al is the cynical ploy of “Jobs! Jobs! Jobs!” Closing the port for 3.4 days of the week, while the LNG tankers are filled will cost our successful & long running fishing, clamming crabbing & tourism industries a lot more jobs in the long run that JC will provide.
That is Bob Westerman, the union representative. The smug face waving in the foreground is one of our port commissioners, Eric Farm. This photograph perfectly illustrates the disdain the port and chamber cabal hold for the rest of the citizens in Coos County.