It’s so easy for propaganda to work,
and dissent to be mocked.
Harold Pinter
Dissent is a long American tradition. You are reading this in the United States because a number of people, for a variety of reasons, joined together in questioning the authority of the King of England.
Many times throughout history, change only occurred after a period of dissent – Suffrage and Civil Rights come immediately to mind. Some would argue that when things are askew, patriotism demands dissent rather than a passive acceptance of the status quo; particularly when what exists only serves a portion of the citizenry.
Dissent creates awareness by forcing issues to the forefront where they become subject to debate, discussion, and sometimes adoption. In the process many are educated and some change their position.
Dissent reminds elected and appointed officials that they were not “anointed” and are not free to move ahead without considering the wishes of those they claim to serve.
Of course, those in power, their buddies, and others who nestle close in hopes of gain, have a vested interest in quieting dissent. And since all dissent begins with questions, power is focused on quieting those who question, either through name-calling and ridicule, ignoring, or out-shouting them. It’s a plus,if, as often happens locally, the major media can be swayed to act as an arm to power and perpetuate the ridicule.
Take the recent case of the Coos County governance meeting being held in The Mill Casino. There were some valid reasons, mostly logistical and economical, to hold the meeting there.
However, most politicians are aware that votes turn on the people’s perception of issues and actions. Such a politician would take preemptive steps to deal with the public’s perception.
If circumstances made it “necessary” to hold a meeting that had been declared public but would effectively exclude a large portion of the public, a savvy politician would have taken pains to explain why it was the only option available.
In this case, of course, the urgency is solely due to political expediency. Cam Parry and Fred Messerle were both appointed rather than elected by the people. Both have used the position to further their own ends and neither has been shy about it.
And both are determined to get the governance change handled before the election and the two are out of office for this term. Parry is not running, though some suspect he is crafting his next position with his call for a new County Administrator.
Fred Messerle is running for re-election and, quite reasonably, doesn’t want to take a chance that the change, which he has championed, doesn’t go through. After all, there’s always the chance that despite large campaign contributions, he will lose the election.
Given the public’s reasonable questions of statutory jurisdiction,instead of disregarding those concerns with a lofty arrogance, a politician who was truly interested in what the people wanted would have pro-actively educated his constituency.
He would have talked about Public Law 280 and perhaps, enlisted the aid of the County Sheriff to explain why the Sheriff having criminal jurisdiction over the Casino on land controlled by the tribe under Public Law 280, meant the County Commissioners can also claim they have jurisdiction.
Here was a missed opportunity to connect with voters, educate them, and let them know they were heard. But, as seems apparent here, if you think you have enough friends with money to get you elected or to accomplish what you want to do, then there is no need to accommodate the working people who vote.
Jessica Lloyd-Rogers is the editor and publisher of the Coast Lake News
TR, I didn’t mean to imply that Caddy or Arnie belonged in the category of those I listed as progressives. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t; I honestly hadn’t thought about it. My point was that when Democrats stand up and run as left wing progressives the outcomes are not good. Am I wrong about that?
As to Caddy and Arnie’s credibility as progressives, I think they both qualify with flying colors. Like many on this blog, you have an LNG litmus test for candidates. That’s fine. You have every right to pursue a single issue all you want. But that is not a true measure of one’s progressivism. As I said before, supporting LNG is very progressive politically, especially for Coos County — particularly if we enact an ordinance to enforce the IEA’s Golden Rules for Natural Gas. That perspective doesn’t fit within your own personal talking points for progressivism, but that doesn’t mean it’s not valid or true.
But your larger point begs an interesting question, one I’ve asked here before and gotten nary a reply: What is a progressive? I like to recall JFK’s speech “Why I Am A Liberal” that he gave before he became president.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/jfk-nyliberal/
I think this speech captures who Joanne Verger is as a democrat. It also inspired Arnie Roblan as a young man — he still abides by its values today. I think it speaks well of what Caddy believes too. I certainly strive to be that kind of liberal.
So what do you mean when you say “progressive”? Maybe we’re not talking about the same thing, but I don’t think one has to be opposed to LNG in order to be a progressive.
This series of exchanges is interesting to read. Mark M will ramble on with his points to arouse his critics, then do a dance and pull their strings without really enlarging his view. Listening to him try to keep his points in the face of Ron Sadler’s unshakeable logic on a recent show was a good example.
I would like to remind you all of the Pacific Green Party. Several years ago, we ran a candidate against Joanne Verger in her first race for State Rep, who received 26% of the vote. I do believe she could have won in a second race, but believing as Mark M, she joined the Democrats and has disappeared.
I will be voting Green in the next election exactly for many of the reasons mentioned below. The assassination conspiracy being a prime one.
Don’t waste your time and energy arguing with Mark M. He never yields in his understanding.
Thank you Colandrio. I will argue that the “assassination conspiracy” is not a conspiracy, it’s policy for the obama presidency, perhaps I misread your meaning, if so, my apology.
Col-
Ron and I disagree about very little. Ask him.
Quite right that Christina Alexander joined the Democratic Party. Wise move, imo. You’re voting for the Green Party candidate? Great. Who is that anyway? Have him or her give me a call and I’ll have them on my show. I had no idea he or she was running. (That’s kinda the point, I think.)
This is exactly why anti-LNG groups no longer call for local referendums, preferring statewide votes instead. They know that they will lose any local election be it in Warrington or Coos Bay.
Vote Green all you want (I like and respect the PGP very much) but make no mistake: any vote not for Obama is a vote for Romney. Is that really what you want? If you don’t like the Rep Party, join it and change it. Good luck with that. Actually, the Tea Party has done it to great effect; the Cruz victory in Texas is just the latest example. TPers are working hard and getting results. If you don’t like the Dem Party take a lesson from your TP friends — show up and change it. Bring friends. You can do it. It’s hard work, though, and you’d better be organized and committed.
FYI, I regularly yield to facts, reason, and truth. I have come to disagree with the conclusions of Jody M and her anti-LNG group, but I greatly respect her passion, organization, and perseverance. You cannot succeed in politics without them.
Markm, this last statement of yours,”FYI, I regularly yield to facts, reason, and truth” is a lie. You have never done that on this site which proves that your either a paid shill for SCDC or a delusional person. You have repeatedly ignored facts, reason, and truth when they were presented to you and all anyone has to do is read your previous postings for evidence of that. You are the best weapon SCDC has because your very apt at frustrating those with differing opinions, to the point of driving them away, that is also your greatest liability. That does not make you right, that does however show that you have tenacity and a stubborn streak which serves the interest of your friends. The residents of this county may not get a good candidate for the position you recently ran for, but they sure dodged a bullet by not getting you.
I seriously doubt that those in your party can expect to gain any new members by having you as a mouthpiece. I think your somehow being compensated for your efforts to drive MGX readers away. If not then SCDC is getting a freebie, that you should be charging them for. No one has done more to frustrate others at this site than you. We have all been advised at one time or another to ignore you. The reason is clear, no one likes to watch a dog go in circles chasing its own tail
The candidates you want to prevail in the next election will most likely do so, not because of their positions on issues. Its because of the corporate money that will continue to pay for the expense of their campaigns and the party’s willingness to only support the next in line. We can see that you have staked out your spot in line.
This local chapter’s candidates have enjoyed the benefit of succession because party loyalty to those in front of you is the only way to get a seat at your table. If your luck holds out you may get that office you so desire, but only if you don’t drive away to many members of your own party to a different table.
What are the facts, reason, and truth I am ignoring?
Did you read about the IEA’s Golden Rules for Natural Gas? Did you read James Conca’s article? What do you think about them?
I will adjust my last statement that referred to your ability to recognize facts,reason and truth as a lie to a more politically correct statement that would be the inability to recognize a fact, reason , or truth, when it doesn’t fit your talking points.
A couple of examples that would qualify as not true is when you make comments that imply you Caddy and Arnie are real progressives and in your quest to convince others that you are, you find a way to name drop individuals that would be recognized as “real” progressives, Grayson, Kucinich, Feingold, Lamont, and Norman Solomon. Your group is in a completely different category than those democrats and I find any comparison to be a falsehood.
When you try to compare the safety of cars, elevators and bathtubs to industries like an LNG facility is an insult to reason and I would qualify that as a falsehood.
Your credibility has been destroyed with such comparisons. I won’t help you chase your tail any further, but I’m sure more statements like that could be used to make my point. Why should I bother having any more dialog with you when your own statements make you look untruthful or ignorant. I don’t think your ignorant so I will choose to believe that your just basically a politically dishonest person that doesn’t deserve any support in a political arena. You may think of me as you choose, but we are done.
Comments are cheap. Work is hard. If you learn nothing else from Zinn you should learn that.
Link to Greenwald’s piece, check out the comments from fellow voters, I’m not alone in my anger and disgust at what is being done to this nation.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/08/05-2
Themguys,Thanks for the link.This is the one statement there that I found the most disturbing, the most truthful and the most sobering.
Zinn continues to be vindicated from the grave: In the People’s History, he claims that (“Carter-Reagan-Bush-Clinton The Bipartisan Consensus” Ch. 21)
no matter which of the two parties are in power, policy shifts rightward and toward authoritarianism. He also claims that all significant social change comes from organized resistance, not voting for corrupt politicians.
I always revisit these points because so many so called progressives/liberals/leftists like to forget the uncomfortable facts and refer to Zinn and his works as some sort of justification for the two party lesser evil sham.
Almost every institution, structure and system in our society is now corrupt to the bone: financial, economic, political, electoral, legal etc. Unless something drastic is done, our society is heading for a collapse: either economic/financial, climate/environmental, or WWIII scenario.
People with no moral compass are asking Americans to continue this madness, some have the ignorance to look at politics as a game. I’ll NOT get into a campaign era tit for tat with anyone on this blog, it’s too important, but when told “to join the Democrat party and play THEIR games?” I don’t play games with thugs and criminals nor any man who positions himself and anything he does above the law. Want more of this? Want more bankruptcy and misery? Then play games, if not, vote third party. Your vote is precious, “don’t contribute to your own destruction” MGX.
HERE IS WHAT’S AT STAKE, FROM GLENN GREENWALD:
Another part of Coll’s article relates to the big, exciting Election Year controversy of the moment: the perfectly legitimate demand that Mitt Romney release more of his tax returns. Here we have the political campaign of the same President who, in another moment of trailblazing, has waged an unprecedented war on whistleblowers, and whose top aides secretly met at coffee houses with industry lobbyists to draft bills so as to evade disclosure and record preservation requirements, marching, apparently with a straight face, behind the banner of transparency to demand disclosure of his opponent’s tax returns.
Specifically with regard to Obama’s assassinations, Coll notes the extreme secrecy behind which they are ordered: “None of Obama’s legal advisers has testified similarly about what secret system and classified legal memos may exist for judging, in the case of an American citizen targeted overseas, whether and why a capture attempt may be feasible.” Indeed, when Awlaki’s father sued in advance to try to prevent the U.S. Government from killing his American son without due process, the Obama DOJ told a federal court that Obama’s assassination program was too secret even to permit judicial adjudiciation of its legality.
So to summarize the Obama campaign’s apparent argument: it’s absolutely vital that we know all about the GOP nominee’s tax shelters and financial transactions over the last decade (and indeed, we should know about that), but we need not bother ourselves with how the Democratic nominee is deciding which Americans should die, his claimed legal authority for ordering those hits, the alleged evidence for believing the target deserves to be executed, or the criteria used to target them. So low are one’s expectations for an American Election Year that there are very few spectacles so absurd as to be painful to behold, but the Obama campaign’s waving of the transparency flag definitely qualifies.”
I don’t support criminal behavior from anyone, and my precious vote won’t be wasted doing so.
Nor will I respond to anymore politicking from Mark McKelvey, the man has no moral compass, just spins any which way the wind blows him, in my humble opinion only, and his words.
” Don’t like the Dem Party? Fine. Join it and change it. Politics is a contact sport.”
And you are a damned fool. This is not a god damned game you sycophant.
Markm, this is your answer. LNG has a safety record superior to automobiles, airplanes, elevators, and even bathtubs.
Why would you compare it to things that are many, many times more common than LNG terminals, and are obviously going to have more incidents than something that has yet to be developed to a level that could make those things comparable? If we had as many LNG terminals as we have bathtubs, then you could make those comparisons. Those comparisons are asinine and you know it.
You should compare it to things that pose just as much danger to a large group of people that could be killed or injured with one single accident. Things like chemical plants, like the one that killed thousands in Bhopal, India. That had a great safety record until an accident happened. things like pipe lines or oil refineries, or coal mine accidents. Things that have the potential to destroy an entire community with one accident. One car wreck won’t have the potential to kill thousands, like an LNG accident could.
Your examples are ridiculous, yet your group always like to make these comparisons to common things. You cant be taken serious when you make such comparisons, yet you and all the other SCDC shills continue to try and sell such comparisons.
Even if you compared it to the examples I gave you to compare, they couldn’t be, because of the rarity of LNG plants versus the numbers of other such industries that pose as much danger. When anyone points at an accident from a comparable industry your side is quick to point out that it was natural gas not LNG that exploded, or gasoline, not LNG, or coal not LNG, or a chemical plant not LNG,that comparison is always treated as being unfair by your group.
Japan was very lucky. If that terminal was located where the nuclear power plant was located, I think you would have had your LNG disaster. With all the scientific data available to us about what we can expect to see when we get our tsunami, there should be no question about the kind of danger you would have us accept.
Also the accepted data on climate change makes your wonderful industries unacceptable for the health of our species. If as much effort was put towards non fossil power sources as is being promoted by those two industries alone, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Now you can tell us how nothing else is ready for prime time to provide our power needs. That’s sure to bring others into the fray.
It’s hard to imagine a more catastrophic blow than the one the Sendai LNG facility withstood. It was not lucky. It was well-designed — and safe.
If you read James Conca’s article in Forbes, you know that the world will need to increase its energy production by a factor of two by 2050. Simultaneously, it must reduce greenhouse gas emissions. This is a highly complex problem. Renewables alone cannot do the job. If they could Germany (solar), Brazil (biofuel), and Norway (wind) would be fossil fuel free today. They are not. Each is consuming more fossil fuels than ever before. India’s and China’s energy appetites continue to grow at geometric rates. China is the world’s leader in solar development, yet it continues to build new coal plants. What would you have them do instead?
The truth is — as Conca points out — that we must do everything all at once. And we must do it right. Find out about the IEA’s Golden Rules of Natural Gas. We need to implement them here in Coos County. Hopefully the country and the world will follow our example. Solar panels and wind turbines definitely have a role. So does natural gas, as well as -gasp- nuclear power. We can fight climate change and develop our new energy future, but any simple solution will be inadequate to do so.
It’s a complicated geo-political problem which will require like complicated solutions — some of which may seem very counter-intuitive, like exporting Wyoming coal through Coos Bay to South Korea, and exporting Canadian gas through Coos Bay across the Pacific Rim. Believe it or not, that’s how we fight climate change.
Let the fray begin.
I would add that developing infrastructure helps the community as whole while ipso facto helps all of the people who live in it. Consider the McCullough Bridge. How many jobs did it create? Well, not many directly. In fact, it eliminated some as all the ferries crossing the bay closed. But does the bridge positively impact our community and everyone in it? No doubt about it.
I’m not evading your request. I believe answered it. I repeat:
LNG has a safety record superior to automobiles, airplanes, elevators, and even bathtubs. The Jordan Cove project represents $5 billion of private money invested in our county as well as hundreds of jobs. It also provides an opportunity to build a world class deep sea wind turbine platform manufacturing and maintenance terminal.
The coal proposal develops our port for a century of next generation shipping with the investment of tens of millions of private money in both rail and terminal development. After the programmatic EIS called for by Democratic Senator Jeff Merkley is completed, we will have a good idea of how it can be done wisely and well.
Suffice to say, you greatly overstate the safety risks. If they were half as bad as you suggest, I would not favor the project. The tsunami in Japan hit an LNG terminal with more force than it hit the Fukajima nuclear plant. As we all know, the nuclear facility was demolished. The LNG terminal is operating today as well as it ever did. In fact, Japan is importing more LNG now than ever — and plans to import even more in the future.
Rep Roblan and Sen Verger are both very thoughtful, deliberate public servants. They said they were undecided and thinking the issue through years ago because they were undecided and thinking the issue through. It is a very complex issue. Go to one of Arnie’s town halls and ask him about it. I’m certain he’ll give you a truthful answer. Sen Verger is on my radio show this Tuesday. I’ll ask her about it for you.
Its getting late and i can see you have nothing to give in defense of your sponsors plans to endanger North Bend and Coos Bay. Better luck explaining away the dangers of building this on the edge of a nice town that could disappear in a flash if there was an accident or an act of terrorism. A town that you and most of the other people pushing this recently adopted as your disposable community.
I don’t think you have anything to say to help the community deal with the dangers you would have them accept on behalf of the people you represent. That’s why you always try to get the other person to give you something else to attack. That tactic got real old a long time ago. We’re discussing why you and Arnie and Caddy think the rest of us should just accept the dangers you will usher into the community. You have nothing to offer about this so you try to redirect. Tell us how great this will be for ALL of us and why there will be no danger to the community. You can’t deal with that can you?
Thank you Reminder for your thoughtful discussion today, I enjoyed it.
No Mark i will not give you arrows for your quiver. I have seen you try that tactic before so that you can direct your argument away from your support for LNG and coal. These two projects are in the forefront of your SCDC goals. How is this going to be safer for families with children that will be living in the new danger zone of those two or more 40 million gallon tanks of LNG. Why should those families accept the risk that those tanks will present on behalf of your sponsors.
Not trying to set you up. I’m genuinely interested in what you’re proposing. Progressives just don’t say NO all the time. That’s what Tea Party Republicans do. Progressives offers solutions for progress.
Read this for fun:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2012/05/13/what-is-our-energy-future/
You will always ignore the dangers you want the community to ignore. Don’t you see that supporting these goals aligns your party with the republicans. They will just fast track your goals even faster if they’re elected. So if anyone wants what your current crop of local democrats want, then they should vote for Romney and all the republicans, because if elected they will take it as a mandate and fast track those projects. You still haven’t given me any reason to vote for your people over theirs.
If an anti-LNG candidate were to get on the ballot, they would definitely have my vote, but you know that our local political system and the candidates that are being presented to us at this juncture are being controlled by corporate money.
So the way I see the situation is, if I vote for your local democrats I am reinforcing the problem and the corruption.
I agree that single issue anti-LNG voters have very limited choices. Maybe YOU should run. What will you offer our community instead of LNG?
Mark,you wrote this.
I do not support LNG and I am not in favor of investigating coal because I think they are political winners. I think both proposals benefit Coos County. Furthermore, I think support of both these proposals is very progressive.
That is a good example of talking out both sides of your face.
How is that?
I think they are political winners but that’s not why I support them. I support them because I think they are good for our community. Improving your community is very progressive.
I’m open to hearing your better ideas.
MarkM, There is no third party, but there are independents who in the past have aligned themselves with a candidate they trusted the most to best represent their interests. Some of those independents may vote republican one time and democrat the next. Some may even take pride in knowing their vote will not be taken for granted because of this independence. I would happily vote for a republican over a democrat if I thought they held the community’s best interest above the goals of an entity that only cares about making money. The current crop of democrats have been bought by special interest and there is no other choice being presented by these democrats. If I were forced to join a party to make it change, it would be the party of Lincoln. They talk out of both sides of their face a little less often.
Well then, please join the Coos County Republicans and help them out. They could use you.
MarkM, why don’t you tell us why we should take the risk of exporting LNG and coal. Forget about any other potential economic goals for our area and sell these two SCDC goals. Tell us why Arnie and Joanne played games with their constituents for all these years, by helping the infrastructure needs for these projects by cosponsoring and passing favorable bills that will redirect tax dollars to help these projects materialize,while telling those private citizens who contacted them that they where still trying to make up their minds.
Tell us how Caddy has helped to protect this community she wants to represent from these speculators that still maintain a stranglehold on this community with these goals in mind. Tell us how the local children in north bend and coos bay will be safer when these two plans the port is refusing to abandon are built. Tell us how our property values will increase when we want to sell and leave the new danger zone they will crate.
LNG has a safety record superior to automobiles, airplanes, elevators, and even bathtubs. The Jordan Cove project represents $5 billion of private money invested in our county as well as hundreds of jobs. It also provides an opportunity to build a world class deep sea wind turbine platform manufacturing and maintenance terminal.
The coal proposal develops our port for a century of next generation shipping with the investment of tens of millions of private money in both rail and terminal development. After the programmatic EIS called for by Democratic Senator Jeff Merkley is completed, we will have a good idea of how it can be done wisely and well.
If there are other private companies that want to invest in our area, let’s hear from them. Who are they?
TR, if the independent constituency is as large and united as you say it is, why don’t you run an independent candidate to challenge either Arnie or Caddy? I can think of two reasons right off:
1) It’s a hellava lot of work.
2) You would lose — big.
That is not to say that I don’t disagree with your diagnosis of the problem. I just think the best way to effect change is from inside the party of your choice rather than from outside of it. You have to go back over 100 years to find evidence to prove the contrary.
C’mon, get on board. Help make a difference.
Markm, don’t try to replace my words with a different meaning. You have a bad habit of doing that to everyone you reply to. I never wrote that independents have won on a large platform. You know I wrote that they are gaining members because of the actions of the parties. My statement was about them growing to a level that could surpass the parties because the parties have decided to represent the minority corporate interests over the public’s well being.
Example, LNG will benefit a few investors at the expense of putting an entire community in harms way, when that risk does not now exist. Why? Profit for a few.
That’s not a position that democrats have traditionally held. Locally these democrats(yourself included) have abandoned their advantage over republicans by taking up such blatantly undemocratic causes that will have a negative impact on our society, so a few will make a huge profit. The same point applies to exporting coal through Coos Bay. It has nothing to do with sitting at your table. The table needs to be flipped, and your local party’s agenda will help that happen to the democrats. You will continue to lose members and cry about them leaving you. You are the poster child for why the party is losing its members.
OK, if you don’t think an independent can win in SD5 or HD9, then run an anti-LNG candidate. My two reasons that you don’t still stand. Regardless, I do not support LNG and I am not in favor of investigating coal because I think they are political winners. I think both proposals benefit Coos County. Furthermore, I think support of both these proposals is very progressive. It does not represent profit for a few as you assert.
I’d still like to know what you are proposing instead. Democrats have a big tent party. I’m all ears.
TR says: “Nothing else can get in the door because of this lousy agenda your promoting.”
Like what?
Markm I noticed you acknowledged that there are “real progressives”. I will take that as an admission that you and Caddy and Arnie are not.
Then you would be in error.
The next time independents elect someone to something will be the first time. Why? They are not politically organized.
Markm, when will you realize that the independents are a growing force that both parties are already trying to pander to. Why is that happening? Its because the twins have lost sight on what most people care about. We already are a third party, who’s membership is growing daily. We will just have to wait until you guys screw things up a bit more before the perceived minority becomes the acknowledged majority. Both sides are losing membership, why?
MarkM, I will finally agree with you on something, that this country will be worse off if we get Romney. I would like to see a real choice difference within this local democratic party,
Where is it? Why does this local chapter keep supporting the people who represent the same corporate interests that any elected republican would be proud to support?
You know what they are and what I’m referring to. Oil/Gas and coal. Nothing else can get in the door because of this lousy agenda your promoting. You and Al are from different parties, yet you represent the same corporate interests. The only difference I see between you two is that your likely to be more liberal on social issues, which to most people are secondary to an economic agenda. That’s not a good enough reason to support your side over his, so it will have to be neither. If someone from your party would reject your primary goals to bring LNG and Coal to the area then they would pick up the rest of us. Your “Local” dem party is being viewed as representing the same greedy corporate interests that the republicans would support.
You wont get an argument from me on what you wrote. I only put up the references to conservative dems and liberal pubs to show that they are nearly the same and neither are worth voting for because you will most likely get the same results(corporate lackeys) no matter their labeling. The twins both have parties within their parties. I just sort of drifted off into comparing them. Someone very close to me quit the dem party after seeing what these conservative dems are doing to this area(selling out to corporate interests). I don’t expect the”normal” dem party to offer a challenge to the conservative dems currently “serving”. I know you remember when Ronald Reagan was able to make “liberal” a dirty word and now some in the repub party are trying to do the same to the word conservative. The repub in-fighting and the dems inability to offer any real choice difference for the rest of us will make a independent run more likely to be successful in the future.Getting to the subject of who to support locally, frick or frack, I say neither. They haven’t earned my vote and they aren’t even trying to, so I wont participate in the fraud they’re imposing, but I will say they’re committing one.
TR, I think we agree about the problem, but differ on the solution. Think about the “real” progressives who have recently run — Grayson, Kucinich, Feingold, Lamont, Norman Solomon (in Calif) — they’ve all lost – big. Consider the Wisc recall election — failure. I submit that Dems are not as liberal as you would like them to be because if they are they do not get elected. Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry — all lost. And look at the sole Dem winner prior to Obama — Clinton, a favorite whipping boy among liberals. You must acknowledge that nearly half of the American electorate is conservative (or at least thinks it is). You do not win elections nowadays by being the kind of liberal you describe. If you want more liberal Democrats you’ve got to get out there, raise money for them, make phone calls, knock doors, and elect them. There is no shortcut. Same thing with a third party — you’ve got to create it; it will not miraculously appear. Politics is work. And quite justly, we get what we work (or don’t work) for.
Recall FDR’s plea: Make me do it. Still true today.
Can’t say I approve of your quiz, TR. I like this one better.
http://www.yourmorals.org/
Try the disgust quiz. Curiously, our attitudes regarding disgust and authority are excellent indicators of our lib/con temperaments. (For the record, I test out as extremely progressive.)
Kay, as always you are great on policy and lousy on politics. A third party vote is worse than not voting at all because it gives you a false sense of accomplishment when all you’ve done is further the opposition. Don’t like the Dem Party? Fine. Join it and change it. Politics is a contact sport. You have to get involved to have an impact.
It’s laughable to think there’s no difference between Obama and Romney. Do you think we’d be just as bad off today had Gore won in 2000? Same thing? Not hardly. Sure, not perfect, but the same? Laughable.
I have to argue Reminder, Arnold is no liberal. And if you check the really close votes, the others vote with their party too. Liberal Republican? I still say no such thing.
Actually, I’m so far to the left it is painful for most people around me. That’s the truth, I have no problem saying so. The Democrat party used to have progressive ideas and actually knew how to pass them.
Do you consider Bill Clinton and Hillary-aka in the M East-The Angel of Death- either progressive or liberal?
There is no sense arguing R and D anymore Reminder, it’s nothing more than a farce to think otherwise. Tell me about the effects of the Clinton’s trade agreements and gutting of welfare as we knew it.. and giving OUR public airways to the corporate world? And what happened to regulations on banking? Yup! ” By the time the affiliation restrictions in the Glass–Steagall Act were repealed through the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999 by President Bill Clinton,” So tell me what difference it makes whether one votes D or R?
Makes no diff. whatsoever, the current Democrat assassinates his own people, a la Pinochett, so it doesn’t make a bit of difference how you vote, like M says, “I refuse to participate in my own destruction”, or more eloquent probably. I’ve been a news junkie since I could read, and after Clinton’s first term, I knew who he was, and never voted either way again, then I was suckered in and believed obama, I voted for him and it’s a huge regret. Never again, I’ll ONLY vote third party. My vote is too precious to support this criminal system we labor under.
How Liberal Or Conservative Are You?
http://www.blogthings.com/howliberalorconservativeareyouquiz/
Yes, Virginia, There are Liberal Republicans
Lincoln Chafee, Olympia Snow, Susan Collins, Arnold Schwarzenegger, ect, ect.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-j-elisberg/a-closed-mind-is-a-terrib_b_202091.html
liberal republicans beliefs
http://www.google.com/search?q=liberal+Republicans&sugexp=chrome,mod=4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&q=liberal+republicans+beliefs&revid=549619065&sa=X&ei=HFMdUPqCLsH9iwKbioHoAg&ved=0CH0Q1QIoBA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=b752d12a099bb300&biw=1024&bih=681
Reminder? Please identify a few of those “liberal Republicans” for us? I’ve never identified a liberal rightie. But boy oh boy the Democrat party is full of conservatives isn’t it?
Why is that?
Thanks.
You have both described one of the many reasons I remain proudly unaffiliated. Nor will I waste my vote on the lesser of two evils – do not participate in your own abuse
In American politics, a conservative Democrat is a Democratic Party member with conservative political views, or with views relatively conservative with respect to those of the national party. While such members of the Democratic Party can be found throughout the nation, actual elected officials are disproportionately found within the Southern states, and to a lesser extent within rural regions of the several states generally, more commonly in the West.
21st century conservative Democrats are similar to liberal Republican counterparts.
An example of a Conservative Democrat is Senator Joe Lieberman from Connecticut.
The term Democrat In Name Only has been applied to conservative Democrats by some on the left wing of the party.
So right. Fine Democrats, supporting this rubbish, McKelvey is all over it as well, what the hell happened to the Dem. party anyway, is this just in Coos County? Where Republicans who register as Democrats so they can support the Republican agenda? Guess so. Sandy is just spreading around more manure which has covered this county for four decades. Build it and they will come, T Docks, Ferrys’, more docks, more promises, but in the end, it’s just bullshit, never has stirred investment and never will. Nothing but pipe dreams paid for by you the taxpayer. She’s nothing but a mouthpiece, a paid shill for these shiesters who have bled this county dry. How long are voters going to fall for these lies? Forty more years? She’s taken up her tin cup and is begging for more of your money now. Since she’s been here, how many jobs has she created, so why does she have any right to go a begging for more and more public funds? She reminds me of the hawkers at the county fair, “step right up, for the price of one dollar you can win the housej”, they were more honest though.
Speaking about propaganda, here’s the latest from SCDC, for those who haven’t seen it yet. The goal is to do business with Non-Free trade countries.
Of course there’s no mention of them still having to use eminent domain land seizure on private property land owners to accomplish this for a Canadian corporation. Don’t overlook the fact that these local democrats are getting paid your hard earned tax dollars to help this foreign corp. steal land from your fellow Americans.
From: Sandy Messerle
Date: Tue, Jul 31, 2012
Subject: Call to Action
Call to Action
If you want to see $5+ billion dollars of private investment on the North Spit, re-establishing Coos Bay as a major international bulk shipping harbor, and in turn, creating hundreds of new, family wage jobs on the South Coast, please consider sending a letter of support to the Department of Energy today.
The comment period for DOE on Jordan Cove’s request for the right to export to non-Free Trade Agreement (NFTA) countries closes on August 6th.
We need local support — demonstrated by obtaining letters from individuals and organizations who would like to see over $5 billion dollars of privately funded maritime infrastructure development on the South Coast – and the resulting jobs, additional new and expanded existing businesses, tax revenues and enhancements in education and workforce development that it will bring for decades.
A letter of support signed by Arnie Roblan and Joanne Verger, among others, has already been submitted to FERC (See attached). We have also attached a draft letter that is similar to what was submitted by these elected officials as a starting point; but anything you might want to say in support of this project would be appreciated.
If you prefer to take the time to write a more individualized letter, economic impact information and additional talking points can be obtained by contacting the SCDC offices at 541-266-9753.
Letters must reach the DOE not later than August 6th, (e-mail is the preferred submittal). This is the close of the comment period for Jordan Cove’s NFTA export application. It is anticipated that an organized letter writing campaign by those in opposition is already underway. Anything that can be added to the docket to provide a balanced comment portfolio could greatly enhance the success of this permit application.
On behalf of the South Coast Development Council, Board, members and staff, thank-you in advance for your prompt attention to this Call to Action.