One of the many deficiencies in the draft EIS (environmental impact statement) raised during last night’s FERC meeting regarding the Jordan Cove LNG proposal is that out of 5,048 pages there is no discussion about alternatives. Other locations for the proposed project must also be considered along with sustainable and less invasive development. Aother alternative the EIS failed to consider is the effect of simply not doing the project at all. Unfortunately, FERC is not alone in ignoring alternatives.
In the lobby, a well known local proponent of Jordan Cove LNG asked me why I wouldn’t want these jobs to come to Coos Bay. “My grandkids live in Bend,” he sighed, “because their parents can’t find jobs here.”
When I asked him what his objection was to green or other sustainable jobs he didn’t have an answer. Bend, Oregon doesn’t have a LNG terminal but this man’s children found jobs there. Why does the pro-gas crowd only promote jobs in dirty, polluting unsustainable industries that deeply divide the community when there are so many alternatives? Job growth in the green sector is outpacing oil and gas jobs despite the latter receiving $52 billion annually in subsidies. The Port of Coos Bay and the local chamber of commerce rally behind filthy coal trains, strip mining and the exportation of natural gas fracked from our Rocky Mountain neighbors. They ignore the mountains of science, the empirical evidence and the well documented detrimental effects on the environment and the water supply and forge blithely ahead praising unsustainable practices.
According to new studies there is less recoverable natural gas than previously believed, about 20 years worth is all. The enterprise zone exemption won’t even be up by the time the wells run dry. Hardly seems worth risking 400 streams and rivers and clean air and water for 20 years and a handful of jobs.
Coal is also a non-starter. “Coal is a dead man walking,” said Kevin Parker, head of asset management at Deustche Bank. “Banks won’t finance them. Insurance companies won’t insure them. The EPA is coming after them.. And the economics to make it clean don’t work,”
It’s astonishing that self-professed “scientist” Commissioner Melissa Cribbins and the rest of the gas lovers so easily ignore the data, the studies and even the economic forecasts associated with natural gas. Clearly the general public across the country and here at home has no stomach for it anymore.
I understand the concept of green/sustainable jobs just fine. I don’t think you understand the difference between fantasy and reality.
You’ve talked before about the importance of offering the community an alternative economy to the LNG project. Great! I’m all about it. We need jobs, growth, development, and investment. The JCEP will inject billion of dollars of investment in Coos County. It will create thousands of high paying construction jobs. It will create a couple hundred high paying permanent jobs. It will provide our community with a quarter billion dollars of new public revenues. This is the best opportunity to hit Coos County in thirty years. That’s the reality. If you want folks to hold out for something else, you’ve gotta let them know what it is. “What ifs” and “Maybes” don’t pay for the groceries.
I’m sorry if you think it’s trolling, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask what you mean. When you asked the JC supporter what his objection to green jobs was, what did you mean? What jobs are you talking about? If you think I’m the only one who will ask this question, you are in for a bumpy reception when you take your petition out to public forums.
If you can’t answer that simple question, you are wise to tell your followers to ignore me. Better for you that they think I am the problem.
It’s hard to say why someone who is supposedly learned cannot or will not grasp the concept of green/sustainable jobs but I would strongly recommend just ignoring Mark. Don’t feed the trolls and the sycophants, it is a waste of good energy better put to talking to people with an eye toward the future rather than the past.
Reminder, I thought you might enjoy this article, last three or so paragraphs say it all about the dimocrat party, or the flailings of those still left in it. It’s dead to most of us who supported the party for years. No more, a vote for Mickey Mouse would be as effective, anyway,very good article about the spending bill just passed by the dimocrats and republicans. 15 Dimocrats supported and passed the Omnibus bill which removes regulations from the banks, again, as well as a bottomless funding funnel for the Pentagon, obomber is pleased, sayeth the press.
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/12/time-democrats-bid-adieu-blue-dogs
While you two are busy high-fiving yourselves, if you happen upon a green job please let Mary know about it. She needs one so she can bolster her claim with a smidgen of evidence.
Let’s make this perfectly clear to you Mark and your handlers, understand one thing in the NEXT election:
Progressives to Dems on Budget Deal: ‘We Will Remember This Betrayal’
You have only yourselves to blame, you let yourselves be bullied into caving too damned many times. Reminder is right, never another vote for a phony dimocrat, who doesn’t have the balls to join the GOP. Somehow thinking they are something better. Pond scum, all that is left of a functioning Democrat party, and it ain’t comming back anytime soon. Doesn’t matter, they will never get another vote from this former life-long Democrat, until Bill Clinton that is/was. I’m a quick learner. Phony bastards. My personal opinion only, and thirty years of history in their wake. Running Killery, or as she’s known in the Middle East, The Angel Of Death. Must make you proud little man.
Have a productive day. You’re certainly not accomplishing anything here. My challenges to the proposition stand.
What green jobs?
that was a nice bit of retoric. You stated yourself earlier in this post that “Here’s the real choice: LNG jobs or nothing”. I see you have changed your mind.
Let me inform you who has been paying for all the hours that Arnie, Joanne, and Caddy have put in for JC, let me tell you who has been paying for the port staff that has been working tirelessly for JC, and guess who’s been paying for SCDC and the county employees and the city employees working to redirect the lost taxes to the CEP. All of those have had tax payers footing the bill. I’m sure I could easily list more ways that tax dollars have been funding efforts to bring JC to town. See I can answer you, but you still haven’t addressed the concerns of the 16 thousand people living in the hazard zones or the property owners taking a hit for this democrat led disaster waiting to happen. I have things to do today so you can have the podium all to yourself to spread your disinformation and half truths.
Once again, Reminder wipes the floor with po widdle Mark M’s arse. A beautiful thing to see. Let me add to Reminders list: $50 mill. un-needed second airport terminal, a hangar that can hold a 737 which cannot land in Oregon, sewer lines to the North Spit, water lines to the North Spit, 12 inch pipeline and it’s 2,900 jobs that didn’t come with it, paving the road for ORC’s dalliance in Coos County, all to promote oil, and touted by the local dimocrats as our saviors. Remember Mark, who is paying for those. Looked at Coos Bays’ bayfront lately Mark? Rusted rails, added to that list of perpetual paychecks for the Port and their teat sucking co-horts. That damn railroad is nothing but a major scam and perpetual funding for the Port. How do you people sleep at night? Look around at this county, and THEN answer your own questions, Mark. Your failed projects do not allow you to point your sticky little fingers in anyones’ direction. You are a fool with words Mark, my personal opinions only of course, as always. “I could have been somebody”.
Your cheerleading sounds more like a white flag.
What green jobs, Kay?
That’s ridiculous. Neither our elected leaders nor I believe the JCEP will be an economic savior for Coos County. It will be a huge step in the right direction and a tremendous boost for our economy, but no one is “putting all our eggs in the JC basket.” Every elected leader will tell you we need to use the JCEP opportunity to diversify our economy. The same is true with our traditional industries of timber and fishing. We need them, but they can not carry us. Our eggs need to be distributed as widely as possible. Green job should definitely be a part of that picture in the future.
Our elected leaders have in fact been very aggressive in seeking out green jobs for this area. County, state and federal representatives over the years have sought and won resources to support all kinds of green projects — we had a proposal to turn logging slash into biomass fuel; we had the wave energy buoy project in Reedsport; an offshore wind turbine project out of the JC slip; solar projects that were built on social service buildings in Coos Bay; we’ve installed electric car charging stations; we’ve subsidized organic agriculture; we’ve sponsored studies to investigate tidal energy projects, co-gen facilities, carbon credits, and low-impact manufacturing sites. If you have other suggestions for green projects to pursue, by all means, let them know! What opportunities should they be following that they have missed? I should add that the Coquille Tribe has also been very proactive on many of these ideas.
Sadly, not many of these ideas pencil out. For a variety of reasons, the economics are just not there.
The JCEP is a totally different animal. This is a private project, supported by private money. Our elected leaders did not seek them out. They found us. And they mean business. They have thus far spent millions of private dollars to get the project rolling. This is real money. The project has a real business plan and real investors. It has a real market. It’s not speculative. It’s not a “build it and they will come” proposal. They are already here. Our elected officials have had nothing to do with that. They are not “spending time working for JC.” They are not spending public employee labor hours or taxpayer money to work for JC. What is your evidence for that outrageous accusation?
If a company came to town with a proposal to put solar panels on every rooftop in Coos County, you can bet our elected officials would give it everything it would need to make it happen. But there is no such proposal. The economics don’t support it. A carbon tax would help make such a project more economically viable, but we’ll need to elect more Democrats to get one. Until then, the market for green jobs in Coos County will continue to be extremely challenged.
So no, there is no green jobs market that Coos County has been ignoring. We’ve been fanning that ember for years, with little to show for it. To be clear, I don’t think this effort has been wasted. I think we should continue to do all we can to foment a green job sector in Coos County. But we are not there yet. Not close.
To suggest to construction workers as they leave town to find work that they should just consider green jobs instead is beyond the pale.
OK, Lets word this a little different and then see if you can grasp the concept of how Coos county is ignoring green jobs. When its elected leaders choose to put all our eggs in the JC basket, like your doing. They have “NOT” been actively seeking out those green jobs for this area. There are a lot of things they could have been doing besides spending time working for JC. If all the labor hours that have been spent by public employees and people drawing money from the tax payers to work on this project were recovered in one chunk, it would be enough money to put solar panels on every roof in Coos County. That is one way we have been ignoring green jobs in favor of exporting fracked gas. I know your not going to take that for an answer as sure as I know you don’t care about all the people this project will harm. I know if your were given a dozen examples you would take out your little stick and try to pokes holes in all the examples because they won’t justify your LNG and coal goals. It is a waste of time to try to school you, but engaging you is helping to expose the democrats for what they are, so its worth the aggravation I experience if it helps others to see whats going on with these corrupt democrats here in Oregon. I can always shower later to remove the slimey atmosphere I feel after dealing with you.
Lets face the truth here. Mark just wants to pick a fight with Mary. Nothing anyone can say will detract him from that goal. My question is, who’s putting him up to it? He never can explain anything you ask him, and this is the voice of the democratic party of Coos County. It seems he has been tasked with two goals. Sell LNG and bring down Mary. He seems to dense to realize she has no reason to nibble on his bait for a fight. It will just encourage him to do more of the same thing he always does. How can you other democrats stomach such immature behavior from your party rep?
I would be embarrassed to have such people representing me. However Mark is likely typical for a democratic chairperson. You probably have to do what he’s doing to earn your seat at their table.
It’s OK with you for Mary to say that Coos County is ignoring green jobs when she admits that that is not the case?
I wouldn’t worry about running out of NG anytime soon. We’ve been hearing warnings about peak oil since the sixties. Never seems to work out. We have more oil today than ever. That’s why it’s less than $60 a barrel now.
You are a master of deflection.
You can’t just say there are green jobs out there when there are no green jobs to be seen. At first I thought Mary was just wrong. Now I’m beginning to wonder if it’s an outright lie.
If there really are green jobs available that Coos County is ignoring, I can’t for the life of me understand why she wouldn’t point out where they are. She is offering us a false choice: LNG jobs or Green jobs.
Here’s the real choice: LNG jobs or nothing. Mary does acknowledge that doing nothing is an option. What she won’t admit is that it is the only alternative.
Like I said, be opposed to LNG all you want. Just don’t try to sell an empty bill of goods by promising green jobs that don’t exist.
It’s not the truth.
That’s not the question I was hoping you would ask me, so I will ask the question for you and I will provide the answer.
Q. How can we fix all these problems that the democrats have delivered.
A. Change your party registration to the pacific green party. It will be a very good start to fixing this areas problems. Its a protest vote that only you can make. It will have two immediate impacts. It will give a stronger voice to those who know whats at stake and it will send a strong message to the democrats. Change or suffer a political dagger to the party heart. Each of us has a choice in who we let represent us. Take a look at the green party, its been hard for me to find any part of the platform to disagree with. http://www.pacificgreens.org/ You will find the link to change your party if you like what you see. Its a vote you have, take advantage of it.
The funny thing is Mark answered all his own questions about green jobs in one of his comments above. “There is no where to go but up.” Amen
The tragic thing is you’re pitching jobs you know don’t exist. At least you admit it. I hope people considering your petition are paying attention.
Why don’t you help me understand this–
Mary says “there are so many alternatives” for jobs in Coos County. What the heck is she talking about?
Does this mean your giving up? You couldn’t find any answers in all this dialog? Whats this mean, we haven’t seen any of my concerns answered either, or have we?
I think we can deduce that profits, lights in China and temporary union jobs are worth more than the safety of residents and property values for private citizens in the way. This is a very integrated part of the democratic party platform. They have fully embraced this position. I think Mark has helped by exposing the mindset of the democrats. I know his posts have helped me understand why they are doing this to Oregon.
I can see now why the guy at the FERC meeting was speechless. That’s the most amazing non-answer to a question I’ve ever seen.
There was not a single green, sustainable, alternative job in it either. That’s the simple fact that cannot be ignored.
I’ll tell you why I think you come here. Its to try to catch something on Mary to use against her. Your always poking at her like a little kid with a stick. It may not be a personal thing for you, but it must be for your sponsors and your the best tool they’ve got for that. Do you notice she rarely answers you? Do you know why? She doesn’t like being badgered and she knows what your trying to do, trip her up anyway you can. The problem for you is that it is very transparent and shows a negative character flaw that is going to be associated with all the democrats you represent, since your the democratic chair. You represent well, please continue minimizing the risk for locals for some temporary union jobs. I’m sure your starting to win some points with all the undecided minds reading this blog. Tell us again how we should follow your democrats over the cliff.
Thanks Reminder. Mostly I don’t answer Mark because he is typically off base and doesn’t even know when he has been “refuted”. That and I am too busy working with people who believe the community has the right to be the decision makers.
What is it your trying to accomplish again? You conveniently try to separate the bigger picture into subcategory’s that you want to focus on, something you feel comfortable with. Are you trying to make us want to frack our own country, poison wells and put all these people in harms way so china doesn’t have to burn more coal. That’s a ridiculous argument to make to people that are being forced to live with the project after the construction is done and the local greedy merchants have milked the temporary workers for all they can. I’m sure your partners in crime will sell more Harleys and cars and taxi rides and serve up lots of food and drinks to the temps until the gas starts to flow, but what then, what do you say to everyone left to deal with living with the worst polluter to Oregons air quality and the largest threat of mass deaths for one single worst case event in our history. No Mark, if you come here you don’t get to have it your way by cherry picking the false good and ignoring the real bad about this project. If the politicians your representing had been working for green energy projects like they have been working for this project, those hardhats would already be working. If they have to wait for JC to get a job then the unions supporting this is toast and failing its members. They have decided its OK to sell out our community for their temporary jobs and so have you. Your can always expect more of the same from me just like we will always see the same weak pro-LNG retoric from you. Hey, maybe Mary will ban me to protect your right to have it all your way.
Why am I here? It’s a public forum, isn’t it? I’m sorry if my challenges make you uncomfortable. You’d do better refuting them than complaining about them.
You’re conflating the argument here and assigning to me a strawman position. Mary’s post is about JOBS, not energy production. Sure, Oregon’s energy report card is rosey. Our Democratic-led government has done well to create marketplace space for wind and solar. We’re also darn lucky that FDR built us a few New Deals dams way back when. If not for them, we’d be burning lots more coal and gas because folks don’t like being left in the cold dark.
Unfortunately, the same can not be said for China, India, and the developing world. They want energy too, and they will continue to burn the world’s dirtiest coal unless they have a better alternative. Natural gas is the only fuel that can provide the quantity of energy they require at a smaller carbon footprint than coal. These countries are already heavily invested in alternative energies, just as the US is. It’s not enough. They are still burning coal. So if you are at all interested in stemming the worst effects of climate change, the choice between burning the dirtiest coal on the planet or much cleaner natural gas is not a difficult one to make. There is no other option. Not now. And these developing countries want energy right now, not in a few decades.
But that’s not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about jobs, particularly jobs right here in Coos County. Mary asked a JCEP proponent “what his objection was to green or other sustainable jobs?” I’m asking her, “What jobs?” Where are they? What are these jobs that we in Coos County are ignoring? Please, do tell. That’s the issue here.
Mary implies that there are more green or sustainable jobs than fossil fuel jobs. Great! Where are they? She says all we’ve ever done is court coal and gas. Far from it! Coos County has seen ample resources dedicated to wind, solar, wave, tidal, and bio mass projects. Where are the jobs? What proposals have been “ignored”?
The union hardhats who are getting regularly bashed here just want to work. What alternative, green, sustainable project can they get started on tomorrow? Tell them and they will show up. It will not be ignored.
Here’s what matters locally. Sixteen thousand people living in the hazard zone of a worst case explosion from an LNG accident or terrorist plot. 200+ landowners and thousands of home owners losing property values by being to close to the plant, the bay or the pipeline. This project violates all those peoples basic human rights. The property values are already dropping. Look at your own property on zillow and track the up and down of the value. Good luck trying to sell it for what you owe after that thing is built. Good luck getting students to attend SWOCC after its built. Good luck trying to leave town when you can’t sell your property for more than you owe after its built. But hey, there are profits to be made and Oregon citizens should just get out of the way of the multinationals that Mark represents and let them have their way with us. I think everyone should know about Oregons energy needs, so I’m including some info emailed to me from Elena M. Krieger, PhD | Director, Renewable Energy Program
PSE Healthy Energy
436 14th Street, Suite 808, Oakland, CA 94612
krieger@psehealthyenergy.org | 415.580.2254
If you don’t like her data I encourage you to take it up with her. My take from her is that Oregon doesn’t need this project to add to its energy portfolio. So who is it for if not Oregonians? You can’t expect us to assume all this risk for temporary jobs. That’s all this project offers for Oregon, nothing else. You Democrats are asking to much from Oregon in several areas, public safety being number one. There aren’t going to be too many of you profiteers living in the hazard zone when this thing is finished. Not those union boys, the paid for politicians and all the government employees who have conspired to sell out the rest of us.
Data from the US Energy Information Administration shows that from January-August 2014, Oregon had the following mix of electricity generation (might not add to 100% due to rounding):
Coal: 4.4%
Natural gas: 17.7%
Hydro: 62.2%
Wind: 13.7%
Biomass: 1.5%
Geothermal and solar: 0.3%
That means three times as much wind as coal, and almost as much wind as natural gas. Also interesting is the fact that coal generation dropped 18% from the same time period in 2013, and natural gas dropped 16%. Wind went up about 2%. Meanwhile, numerous studies across the country seem to indicate that most grids can accommodate 30-40% wind and solar without much trouble (for example, see Minnesota and the Mid-Atlantic). Oregon itself has the advantage that it has great hydroelectric resources, which can be ramped up and down to manage variability in wind generation.
The take-away here is that Oregon is already seeing large-scale wind and hydropower and less and less generation from coal and gas. Wind generation doubled in Oregon from 2009 to 2013. There are more than enough wind resources for this growth to continue, and as mentioned above, wind could probably generate more than 30% without big reliability issues (and it’s almost halfway there and most of that capacity was built in the last ten years).
There are some other complications in Oregon — it imports some electricity (often from fossil generation) and exports a lot of electricity to California. However, for in-state generation, Oregon is already pretty far along the path towards adopting renewables in place of fossil fuels for electricity generation.
What is it your trying to accomplish Mark? Are you just looking for an argument? Do you really hope to convince Mary’s readers that we are all wrong and you have it right? Are you here to defend the blue dog democrats you represent or are you here to self destruct just a little more by preaching for gas as a path to a renewable energy future no matter who it hurts?
You’re right to point to fossil fuel subsidies as a big part of the problem. But overturning them is yet again another example of good policy / impossible politics. There is zero political capital behind this idea. It’s just not happening and you’re wish-casting to think differently. Those subsidies are here to stay.
But there are alternatives. The best is instituting a carbon tax. A tax carbon achieves the same goal as removing FF subsidies by making fossil fuels more expensive. This accomplishes two good things — reduces the amount of carbon people put in the atmosphere (tax something and you get less of it) and creates economic space in the global energy marketplace for alternative energies. A carbon is tax is widely supported by economists on both the right and left ends of the political spectrum. It already has some scattered support in Congress. Europe instituted a carbon tax years ago. British Columbia has had a carbon tax for ten years with great success. California has a similar plan. With a newly elected supermajority of Democrats in Salem, Oregon is poised to implement a regional carbon tax with BC, Washington, and California.
A carbon tax is a simple, elegant solution to a very complex, complicated problem. It is much closer to enacting than you might think. But it won’t happen on its own. It’s still a very heavy lift. Citizen activism on this issue could make a huge difference.
Several problems here. First, the link about green sector jobs shows the percentage growth is indeed very large. But that is because the green sector is so small. It has nowhere to go but up. The gross numbers of green sector job growth are actually very low, especially when you spread them across the globe as that story does. In the US fossil fuel jobs are rapidly out growing green jobs in raw numbers, especially in places like North Dakota and Texas. Look it up. That just the fact.
That doesn’t mean green jobs aren’t worth pursuing. They are. The Obama administration has done substantial work to spur green jobs, starting with the Recovery Act in 2009. Oregon has followed suit with many aggressive incentive programs to create green jobs. Here in Coos County we have subsidized solar, wind, tidal, wave, and biomass projects. The problem is not that we are ignoring green jobs. The problem is that all these green projects don’t produce many jobs. Most of them don’t produce anything at all.
That doesn’t mean they aren’t worth trying. They are. But to hold them up as viable alternatives for our flagging economy in Coos County is offering a false choice. It’s an empty promise.
What are the green jobs Coos County is ignoring? Where is the proposal from US Solar Manufacturing, Inc to build a plant here? Where’s the proposal from United Wind Turbines, Inc to build a wind farm? Where’s proposal from Independent Household Energy Group to build and sell sustainable energy systems to homeowners? If any of them bring a $7.5 billion project to the table, they will be greeted with wild applause and open arms. Shoot, a $7.5 million plan would get the same response. Or even a million, or a few hundred thousand. They would get the very same tax advantages the JCEP gets. Where are they???
The truth is, they don’t exist.
It’s all well and good to oppose the JCEP. But don’t do so under the guise that there are other better alternatives for the Coos County economy that are being ignored. That’s just not true.
Scabs. These are nothing more than scabs on the arse of hummanity. Thinking they are so clever. Just scabs.
That travelling busload of union reps wearing BS shirts exercised a neat trick later in the meeting by passing their three minutes of talk time to a single person to do their boot licking. They got away with it. I wonder if they are going to be allowed to use that tactic at the other stops of ferc’s dog and pony show?
The unions have lost me as a supporter as a result of their failed leadership. Sending a busload of intimidators to eat up seats and spread themselves through every seating row may have worked. It was a strategy designed by the union bosses wearing BS shirts to make it appear like they were locals. This tactic to use the unions to storm-troop our local meetings for the fossil fuel industry shows the FF people have been busy spreading their money to buy thugs and politicians. Do you think Veresen paid for the catered bus rides for the ferc tour outright or did they try to mask it again by redirecting the cost through BSOregon?
The unions should be smarter than that. They picked the wrong project to sell out for. This was suppose to be a meeting to discuss any flaws with the DEIS, not a pep rally for Jordan Cove.
Yeah, they do that every time, also at Wyden meetings.
