Emotional fireworks permeated the vigil once again last night as some of the flag wavers chose to join the VFP and WIB corners uninvited. 
Women In Black are, of course, unperturbed by this intrusion and continued their silent vigil in honor of those lives lost to violence.
Meanwhile, a compatriot of the squatter on the sign decided to visit the VFP group and express his unwanted opinions upon our members.
As this exchange grew more heated another of our members courageously positioned himself between the interloper and our female members
Later a sargeant from Bandon PD ordered the squatter off the Welcome to Bandon sign and further spoke to the other gentleman as well. Thank you, Bandon PD.
The consequence of all this activity was that I spent the entire hour shooting photos and will post more pictures a bit later.
Scotty and ornat cannot respond, no one told them what and how to think about this one. My Gawd, if Limpball aint’ got an answer, then neither do they.
Come on boys, surely they’ve told you what to say by now.
For Scott, if he can take it, which doesn’t seem the case:
Chuck Hagel, another crazy leftie, Scott?
By: SilentPatriot @ 6:38 AM – PDT Nebraska Senator Chuck Hagel appeared on “Real Time” last night and had some tough words for the White House for “sending a military man to do a political job.” Hagel also noted that the “Iraq war is biggest mistake in US history.”
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Maher: Isn’t a dirty trick on the American people when you send a military man out there to basically do a political sell-job?”
Hagel: It’s not only a dirty trick, but it’s dishonest, it’s hypocritical, it’s dangerous and irresponsible. The fact is this is not Petraeus’ policy, it’s the Bush’s policy. The military is — certainly very clear in the Constitution — is subservient to the elected public officials of this country.. but to put our military in a position that this administration has put them in is just wrong, and it’s dangerous.”
Hagel’s responses to Bill’s questions were perhaps his strongest condemnation of the White House and this war yet. The truth is that President Bush had no choice but to make Petraeus the poster boy of The Surge; after years and years of misleading this country, his credibility is at zero and he needs someone with a seemingly objective and non-partisan record to do the political dirty work of selling the surge continuing the occupation. Absolutely shameful. As Hagel makes perfectly clear, the Republican Party will pay dearly for it.
Filed Under: White House, Iraq, Chuck Hagel
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Priceless, and so delicatly put.
Thank you, Excuuuuuuse me!
I am very happy that you are having fun, Ornat.
For more fun, This Link
If you understand what I am driving at, I would like to ask a favor of you. Please disscuss with Scott the amazing thing he said, in his post #42.
It is apparent Scott does not know what a right is. I would take it up with him myself but he has, sadly, run for it.
Scottie went home, probably to write another rubber check to the government.
He’s honorable you know.
You aren’t scaring me off, I’m having to much fun.
“Serious communication?” Hell, you never answered one question, that, Skippy, is not dialog. That is cowardice and ignorance.
Bye, bye.
Yeah, , right Scott, YOU can’t believe Pentagon sources
Sleep tight, your little mind won’t be bothered with any more facts.
Your gene pool won’t have to worry about overflowing it’s banks, that’s for damn sure.
We’ll miss you, didn’t take you long to figure out you were waaayyyy over your head here. Jeebus, you might even have to have an independent thought, better grab ornat and hightail it to your room, and cower under your bed.
YOU CANNOT TAKE THE TRUTH.
I am so glad to see it for myself, amazing.
Sleep well, Skippy!
Okay, guys and girls, it seems that there is no possible hope for any serious communication with you people. You expound on a difference of opinion as if it were fact. You dismiss a man’s whole career on some statement which only identifies the source of his information as being “according to Pentagon sources.” That is not the kind of “facts” on which I would like to make judgments. However, if it is good enough for you I see no good reason for trying to dialog with you people. So you guys and girls can just all sit around and tell each other how wonderful you are and that you, alone, hold the corner on truth. But I did try to add some sense the blog. Enjoy yourselves.
Just a note, you did SEE and HEAR this news on Faux News or Limpballs’ show, didn’t you? Surely you’ve seen this ?
Why didn’t you include this in your “honorable” list of Betrayous’ accomplishments?
Just another one of those durn, pesky little facts you guys don’t want to hear.
No Scott, we leftists probably shouldn’t judge this man, but THIS ONE SURE AS HELL CAN!!!!!! Betrayous’ boss, how do you like them apples? Please respond Scott, this is Betrayous’ superior officer speaking. I want to hear your response on this one, you honoring fool:
U.S.-IRAQ: Fallon Derided Petraeus, Opposed the Surge
By Gareth Porter*
WASHINGTON, Sep 12 (IPS) – In sharp contrast to the lionisation of Gen. David Petraeus by members of the U.S. Congress during his testimony this week, Petraeus’s superior, Admiral William Fallon, chief of the Central Command (CENTCOM), derided Petraeus as a sycophant during their first meeting in Baghdad last March, according to Pentagon sources familiar with reports of the meeting.
Fallon told Petraeus that he considered him to be “an ass-kissing little chickenshit” and added, “I hate people like that”, the sources say. That remark reportedly came after Petraeus began the meeting by making remarks that Fallon interpreted as trying to ingratiate himself with a superior.
That extraordinarily contentious start of Fallon’s mission to Baghdad led to more meetings marked by acute tension between the two commanders. Fallon went on develop his own alternative to Petraeus’s recommendation for continued high levels of U.S. troops in Iraq during the summer.
The enmity between the two commanders became public knowledge when the Washington Post reported Sep. 9 on intense conflict within the administration over Iraq. The story quoted a senior official as saying that referring to “bad relations” between them is “the understatement of the century”.
Fallon’s derision toward Petraeus reflected both the CENTCOM commander’s personal distaste for Petraeus’s style of operating and their fundamental policy differences over Iraq, according to the sources.
The policy context of Fallon’s extraordinarily abrasive treatment of his subordinate was Petraeus’s agreement in February to serve as front man for the George W. Bush administration’s effort to sell its policy of increasing U.S. troop strength in Iraq to Congress.
In a highly unusual political role for an officer who had not yet taken command of a war, Petraeus was installed in the office of Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Republican from Kentucky, in early February just before the Senate debated Bush’s troop increase. According to a report in The Washington Post Feb. 7, senators were then approached on the floor and invited to go McConnell’s office to hear Petraeus make the case for the surge policy.
Fallon was strongly opposed to Petraeus’s role as pitch man for the surge policy in Iraq adopted by Bush in December as putting his own interests ahead of a sound military posture in the Middle East and Southwest Asia — the area for which Fallon’s CENTCOM is responsible.
The CENTCOM commander believed the United States should be withdrawing troops from Iraq urgently, largely because he saw greater dangers elsewhere in the region. “He is very focused on Pakistan,” said a source familiar with Fallon’s thinking, “and trying to maintain a difficult status quo with Iran.”
By the way, you leftists say you support the troops. General David Petraeus is a troop. Check out this list of decorations:
U.S. military decorations
* Defense Distinguished Service Medal
* Distinguished Service Medal (with Oak Leaf Clusters)
* Defense Superior Service Medal (with Oak Leaf Clusters)
* Legion of Merit (with 3 Oak Leaf Clusters)
* Bronze Star Medal (with “V” Device)
* Defense Meritorious Service Medal
* Meritorious Service Medal (with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters)
* Joint Service Commendation Medal
* Army Commendation Medal (with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters)
* Joint Service Achievement Medal
* Army Achievement Medal
U.S. unit awards
* Joint Meritorious Unit Award (with 3 Oak Leaf Clusters)
* Army Meritorious Unit Commendation
* Army Superior Unit Award
U.S. non-military decorations
* State Department Superior Honor Award
U.S. service (campaign) medals and service and training ribbons
* National Defense Service Medal (with 2 Service Stars)
* Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal
* Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal
* Iraq Campaign Medal
* Armed Forces Service Medal
* Humanitarian Service Medal
* Army Service Ribbon
* Army Overseas Service Ribbon (with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters)
U.S. badges, patches and tabs
* Combat Action Badge
* Expert Infantryman Badge
* Master Parachutist Badge
* Air Assault Badge
* Joint Chiefs of Staff Identification Badge
* Army Staff Identification Badge
* Ranger Tab
* Multi-National Force – Iraq Patch
* 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) Patch
Foreign military decorations
* Gold Award of the Iraqi Order of the Date Palm
Foreign badges, patches and tabs
* British Parachutist Badge
* French Parachutist Badge
* German Parachutist Badge
Non-U.S. service medals and ribbons
* United Nations Mission in Haiti (UNMIH) Medal[26]
* NATO Meritorious Service Medal
And yet you leftists feel that you can judge this man. How sad.
I think that you people who supposedly represent the “Veterans” for Peace did not learn much if you served in the military service. The whole idea of basic training is to teach men to follow orders and not to question those orders. All of us should realize that ultimately there is a higher power to which we might answer to and that should be the final guiding force in our lives. But you cannot have soldiers who question every order they are given. By the arguments given in this forum by the liberals you could have an effective military force.
Let me give you an example: Let’s assume a combat situation where it might be necessary to attack a machine gun position because the machine gun offers a very significant and deadly threat to a lot of men. The squad leader gathers some men and orders them to take out the machine gun. By the philosophy amongst this group of liberals they would all seem to want to sit down and consider whether this was a legitimate order, whether the order might cause harm to themselves, etc. YOU CAN’T DO THAT IN COMBAT!
So whereas I try to present arguments from the position of REAL military operations you folks seem to want to argue from the perspective of civilians who do not know how the military works.
In the case of passing out TOP SECRET clearances for people who will be handling some of the most classified information this nation might have you CANNOT have people like you in the possession of that kind of information. You liberals would have no obligation to try to protect that information especially if it did not fit your perception of whether or not it should be protected.
You people do not live in the real world of military service and therefore you cannot understand what real military service is all about.
I can tell you this quite frankly, William Clinton could never have gotten a TOP SECRET clearance in the military service considering his background. John Kerry could not have gotten a TOP SECRET clearance considering his post Vietnam actions. Most congressmen and legislators in the US could not pass the test to handle TOP SECRET information. And none of you in this group of VFP and WIB could pass the test for access to TOP SECRET information. That is a fact. And your actions show that you should not be given that kind of information.
All to often people who sit in their easy chairs watching world events on TV feel that they have sufficient knowledge to make judgments that military people have to make in combat areas under extreme distress. It is not fair to judge these people from your perspective. And aren’t you being very presumptuous when you, who have only a very limited view of things, feel you are competent to challenge decisions made by very intelligent men who have studied warfare their whole lives. You must have some pretty big egos, in my opinion.
It’s still illegal to lie under oath, he was convicted…….. then pardoned.
Sigh……….
When one is involved in clandestine intelligence operations he is trained to lie. Often times people involved in military operations where there is a high chance that they might be captured and interrogated, they must learn to try to give the enemy as little information as possible – or lie. By the same token it is not always advisable to give classified information to the likes of people on the left who have no regard for protecting that information. Just because someone holds an office, such as senator or congressman, does not mean that he will honor the same code of conduct that a military person might have to honor. And ultimately US legislators are above the law and do not ever have to face the kind of punishment a military person may have to face for divulging Secret or Top Secret information.
As a military person or an intelligence operative one must learn to live in a different kind of world than the world in which protected citizens live.
So do not be too judgmental of Lt. Colonel Ollie North when you probably do not have any idea of what you are talking about.
“To the USA, up to and including My life, that’s honor”. No numbnuts, that’s really stupid. Stupid is as stupid does. You think that’s “honor”? For Reals?
Wow, kinda reminded me when Ollie North (great amerikan hero) stood just before being convicted of lying to Congress, remember? He stood there and said”it’s not easy for this Marine Col to lie”. No but the MF did it, didn’t he?
here’s another quote: “Blind obedience in ANYTHING will get you killed.”
I won’t ask you any further questions, you are obviously not capable of forming your own original thoughts. This is why so many of us get frustrated. EVery human being should be open to learning, you, on the other hand, refuse.
How dare you tell F Flakes to “shorten it” shows your depth of understanding perfectly. Shorten it, indeed, goes right along with the “don’t give me facts” huh?
I could present an intelligent argument to any proposition you wish to espouse; however, we have different belief systems. No matter how much evidence I might present to you you would still espouse the same left-wing philosophy. Ultimately, how can I convince you of anything when you openly declare your hatred for President Bush, and that hatred clouds all other judgments you might make? You probably hate the USA but you don’t have the guts to say it. Obviously there seems to be very little you do like about this country. While people all over this world are dying to get into the US, all you do is find things wrong with our country. Why do you choose to live here if you feel this way? It seems to me that the whole lot of you would be much happier living someplace else.
I love this country and I am perfectly willing to die for it, if my country called for me to do so. At one point in my life, I wrote a blank check made payable To “The United States of America,” for an amount of “up to and
including My life.” That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who
no longer understand it.
In fact, I still recall the first line of the Military Code of Conduct:
“I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.”
My rights are a whole lot less important than the welfare of my country or my community or my family. And yet the Left always seems to be demanding their rights, often times at the expense of everyone else.
I have lived a very good life in this country. I am thankful every day for the good life I have. I try not to take too much for granted. Ultimately I wish others could enjoy the wonderful life I have lived in this country. That is why I want the US to be successful in Iraq, so that those people might have even a small taste of the good life I have enjoyed living in a free society. Fortunately, for me, each day I am able to get up is an exciting day for me and I am always thankful, especially to those who stand watch so I can sleep well and safely each night.
I am confused. Is Ornat one person? More than one? I will address the last, first.
Sir. If you do not want a long and involved answer, then do not ask a long and involved question. My impression, that you did not want an answer – so you could complain of not getting one – is reinforced. I answered you point by point. Spent quite a bit of time doing it too. And for what?
A poke in the eye. Blah blah blah, you say. Shorten it, you say. Then you toss me into your predefined catagory od “Left Wing Nut Jobs”. Here are true colors. How are two such as we to get along? My impression is, we would get along fine if only I thought….just like you.
Dealing with the first, last, Hi Gary.
What drives me in the support of our Constitution is that it exists, that everyone has sworn to uphold support and defend it against all enemies, and that its’ purpose is to control government. As opposed to the alternative, that being uncontrolled government. Government that can designate you an enemy combatant, with no proof and no one asking for it, to throw you in a hole and then years later thinking about possibly considering thinking about considering if maybe you weren’t so bad as all that in the first place.
And skipping past that whole arguement, and your retoric in re ; Single superpower – though this is quite exciting by itself, and focusing briefly on terrorists – What terrorists are you taking about? Do you mean the guys who have not yet bothered to blow up even one of our airport security desks? What, pray tell, stops terrorists doing this? Then ther is the propane tank at the corner gas station in evey town in the country. What stops terrorist shooting one, and driving on? You know what would happen soon thereafter, and so does everyone else, yet no one uses these weapons of mass destruction. It is plain why, no one wants to.
Yet you and many others continue to insist there are terrorists, and they will stop at nothing and so on. In the face of the evidence. When you are totally exposed, yet have no problem, that means there is no threat. I do not understand why you have difficulty seeing this. Does it help that I have pointed it out?
Oh, Frosted Flake, I am so sorry you spent so much time thinking about and writing such profound words. They are so true, but you see, Scott’s first words, were to call you names, I keep trying to tell you guys, these jack-asses can’t even decifer your words, let alone actually THINK about them. Potty-mouth little boys, that’s all they are. You cannot talk to a child as you can to an adult. See, we aren’t used to being around people like this, people incapable of thinking for themselves. We try to have reasonable, adult, conversations, where we can all learn something from each other, but they don’t want to learn anything. Like the gorilla in the zoo, all they can do, all they will do, is throw their shit at anyone who comes close. We have to continue to stay above them, that’s where they like to be, anyway, otherwise, they would take a few minutes to really educate themselves on the reality of their world. They just can’t help themselves, so Scott, go ahead sweetie, you just pull that shit out of your diaper and throw all you want. We laugh at you now. There’s nothing else to do with you.
Well Frosted Flake you showed your true colors with that bunch of Blah, Blah, Blah. next time shorten it down. I can tell that you are an upset individual that lives by the conspiracy theory just like all the rest of you left wing nut jobs.
I’ll go first so you don’t think my previous blog was a trap, because I really do care.
The only person I found that was willing to show since on this blog was Frosted Flake, thank you for your comments. I may not aggree with everything you said but I did see wisdom in your statements and not just ranting like others on this site.
What drives me in the support of our troops and their mission:
I feel that we are at war every day weather we want to see it or not, it is the fact of life. Someone always wants to take what isn’t theirs, inflict their ideas on you. That is terrorism, it has been around ever since time and with that peace and faith go out the window. I voluntered to join the military at the end of Vietnam 71-74, not that I knew it was going to end. My thoughts were that in some small way I could help to defeat communists (evil) control over people and the threat to everyones freedom and right to live in peace. Bottom line is that in a nut shell, freedom for everyone, and the right to live in peace. I didn’t have to think about anything else, just plan and simple. The price of oil, who has the control of oil, the price of food, and other things that cloud the issue that everyones freedom and right to live in peace is in jeopardy. Like I have said before, if we are the super power of the world then we should be standing up to any and all terrorist that inflict pain and suffering on whom ever. No questions asked, evil should be taken out and that is the only way that peace can be attained bottom line. Can it be attained, I don’t know but I feel that we should try even if it is in vain.
Think long and hard about the people that you are condeming to be under such terror every day. We are fortunate to live in a country that does care about the greater good, not just the people at the top. Be aware the hoard is coming to your neighborhood, if you sit back and do nothing. It is your choice, my choice is to stand in support the troops and their mission.
I know that I have given you alot of ammunition for negative comments, I would hope you don’t share them. Like I stated this is how I feel, it isn’t up for debate by anyone. Just as what ever you have to say isn’t up for debate from me as long as it is how you feel and not some canned answers that I can watch the news, or see on the internet.
Thank you and may God bless you richly.
Gary
What an interesting mind you have, Scott.
I find it especially interesting that your reasoning leads inevitably to the conclusion that I have no purpose on this Earth.
There is a lot of that coming from your corner. It is almost as far from agreeable as it is from intimidating. Take care your mouth does not write a check your ass cannot cash.
Now that I am talking this way, do you understand?
Frosted Flake, I think you have been well-named.
Frosted: To anger or upset
Flake: A somewhat eccentric person; an oddball.
I think that an “angry weirdo” might very well describe you. Too bad you really do not have any real purpose for taking up space on this planet.
I’ve said this earlier in a post and I will say it again. You hypocritical Veterans for Peace, fly the flag upside down solely for the purpose of trying to provoke “real” patriots. You know it irritates “real” patriots. So you get some kind of perverted pleasure from irritating “patriots.” The hypocrisy comes from flying flags showing a dove, the international symbol of peace, while, at the same time, sneering and doing everything you can, to irritate and provoke patriots. The analogy might be something akin to shaking your fist at someone with one hand while holding an olive branch in the other. But you peace monkeys know, deep down, that you really do not want peace. You just want to protest. Without this you have nothing, no country, no god, and really no purpose for being on this earth. What a waste!
Oh, Darn, It seems I can’t post a photo here. Know that I tried, and the thought does count. I am not fearful some may connect my views with my face. here is the code that will bring you the photo.
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/445/frostedflakeio7.png
PS Mary : Disregard Email. I figured it out.
In closing, I would mention the gentalman siad as he left that I would be among the first to die, when alcaida gets here, because my face was visible. it is not so hard to figure out what he meant by that, is it?
Methinks, Frosted Flake, that your sound words and reasoned argument will meet with little success within the ranks of the ribbon and flag bearing uber-patriots .
On another post one of them actually asked us to explain our contempt for the current administration but don’t want us to use ‘facts’!?!?! The worm’s eye view of things I suppose.
Interesting, Ornat. You do not note the carrige of the sholders? This doesn’t convey for you a message? I find this quite odd.
What clenched fist? Note the position of the thumb. A fist has the thumb drawn back, to avoid it being broken. If I were holding a fist, my thumb would be across the back of my first two fingers. What I was holding was tension, and that related to the liklyhood of needing to make a fist in the near future. Of course, it is unreasonable for me to have emotions, at least in such a situation, and in future I will bear that in mind…if you do.
What cHristian man? I am not a christian. I am agnostic, and not in the sense of being ignorant. I ackowledge that each of the religions have thier fair share of truth, but not enough to get by on. I advocate that the various religions be compared in order that men may learn from all of them, and hope thereby to learn something of the nature of God. As distince from the current practice, that of fighting one another over which of the various religions is the “One True Faith”.
As for “Moron”, I calls ’em as I sees ’em. And you are not so pure in this regard as to be in a position to tell me much.
Yes, I was, as you say, “right there”, as the photo goes far to prove. No, I was not able to read the gentalmans mind. I, not being an extra-ordinary person, was limited to observeing his behaviour and from that inferring these things which you have the hutzpa to ask me if I knew as if anyone could – know – these things you say I MUST before recating to the situation the gentalmans actions precipitated.
You ask if I have ever thought about going over and taking to the flagwavers. I answer that Yes, I did, and Yes, I did. The result of the “confrontation” was, I was allowed to look into the minds of the three men I spoke to on the flagwavers corner. What I saw there was not encouraging. It appeared there was in each mans mind a custom made case, rather like a violin case, with velvet lined form fitted recesses for the storage of all the relevant facts, A thru E, and no room at all for any fact excepting A thru E. Thus, should any relevant fact be for any reason absent it will be missed, and retrived, immediatly. And should any other fact be noted as present, it can be swept aside without examination preperatory to the mind snapping shut once again.
Put another way, what I saw in theose three mens minds was disease. Or, if you prefer to look at it that way, Injury. Either way, the point of origin is the same. And it is not an accident. There is a method, well tested by time, that can ensure loyalty to a cause that does not deserve it. The Psycological Operation (military, not medical) consists of getting the initiate (sigular or plural) to perform a reprehensible act in the name of that cause. An example would be, the invasion of a country without a causis belli. A differant example can be found in the photo posted below. The result of the PsyOp is, the initiate will not be able to question the cause, its’ leaders or thier orders, without immediatly and unavoidably coming face to face with his own guilt, and that of the cause he has prostituted himself for. In that this means admitting to being a bad person the motive is to avoid doing so. The degree of motive is related to the degree of guilt. The objective of the perpetrators of the PsyOp is, to creat guilt sufficient to dissuade “Reconsidering Things”. It would appear the mark has been met, in the persons of the flagwavers.
It would be tragic if it wasn’t so dangerous. It is so dangerous because the attempt is to banish “thought” from the public discussion, thereby transforming politics into a quasi religion of the worst possible sort – worshipping ignorance itself. And, not coincidentally, setting those worshippers upon any who do not practice this bizzare, new, “True” faith. Such a church needs a name. It would have one if it were not attempting to avoid being called a religion. I think of it as, The Church of the Forced Conversion. And this is the problem that sitting over wine, discussing, would certianly solve, in that this is precisly the sort of activity the church of the Forced Conversion exists to prevent.
Regarding my flag “analogy”, That is what I think because that is what I see. I see you flagwavers using our symbol a shorthand. The message is, “You are Patriotic, we are criminal or very nearly so.” The implication is not overlooked that if we fly Old Glory, then we are agreeing with you. Therefor, to cite just one reason, the flag is inverted over on this corner. This is why the flagwavers are excited, not because of any precived disrespect of the flag on our part, but because it was hope we would either appear to agree or surrender the flag, and have taken a wiser course.
Regarding your flag analogy, I don’t think the dove is a religious symbol, and if it is, so what? Moreover, I am in the dark as to where this provecation you speak of can be found. I see none from the Women in Black, and in point of fact the presence of the Vets for Peace is predicated on the habitual restort to violence on the part of the flagwavers – first against the Women in Black, and later against those who would have you fight them, if fight you must. just as I was doing, in the photo at the top of this page.
As you say, where is the love, the compassion, the non-violence, and who the hell are you to want to recievce such without first offering it?
Frosted Flake.
I couldn’t see your “expression” unless the back of your head shows something important. You are right in the photo your hand is below your beltline. What about the clinched fist? Not that I am trying to disregard such a Christian mans character. Just as you shouldn’t call someone a moron that you don’t know.
I must ask, were you right there when the fellow came across the street? Do you know why he came over to talk to the lady with the flag? Do you know why he grab the flag? Do you know what his intentions were? Do you know what his back ground is.
And you ask me if I had ever thought about going over and talking to any of you guys? Have you, and why did you choose not to? I would ask, would sitting over wine discussing anything solve one thing?
Your flag analogy: “That would be because the flagwavers have stolen (OK, Misappropriated) our National Symbol for use as thier own, and are excited to see that symbol taken back.”
Why would you think that? Doesn’t the flag belong to the people. Unlike yours having to steal the dove from the Christian symbols. What is the difference. Yours claim peace under the dove and sling hatered with your mouth and signs. Your claim of respecting the flag and you let the lady fly it upturned, why would you do that? Is that respect for the flag, or is it someone trying to instigate a feeling that is contrary to what yours stand for”Veterans Peace” Where is the love, the compassion, non violence?
In re : childish
I am the fellow wearing the plaid shirt in the photo above. Note the “expression” evident, along with the position of the hands. I was doing what I had to, no more. I was “asked” about it, not much later. I responded in writing, thus :
================================
Speaking for myself, and from my own point of view, I think my behaviour was ok. But, I do listen to criticism.
I realize I am not right about everything, and expect never to get that right about anything. In my own defense, I note that my hands stayed below my beltline. It is hard to construe this as being offensive, in that it isn’t even defensive. As for me “getting in the gentelmans face”, that is not where I was. I was between the gentelman and the people he was attempting to intimidate, harrass and abuse. This is the “Guard” position. I was in it because he is a man, so am I, but his targets were women and a child. I was there to take any blow that might be delivered, so that a woman or child did not.
In utter frankness, I aver that my intent upon taking a blow was to stomp his ass. Not to simply take the blow. Certianly not to say thanks for it. I didn’t WANT to get hit, as I am not a punching bag. I certianly didn’t want to get hit twice. I wanted, and thought I had achieved, the communication of the idea that if he was going to hit, he would be hitting me, no-one else, and that it would cost him more than he was willing to pay for the pleasure. I was attempting to point out to a moron that his behaviour could be improved. I think I may have got part of that across. That I used the diction he specified can be very simply explained : he specified the diction.
Last week there was an interesting fellow at Leftys’. He eloquently spoke on the matter of nonviolence. I generally agree with him. But there is a certian circumstance. When a fellow uses a propensity for violence to make others do as he says, a choice is presented. You (the reader) can choose to do as the violent man says. Presumably forever. Or you can address the propensity for violence in that man. Presumably once. You bigger guys, and a suprising number of women, seem to disrespect this aspect of violence. But I weigh 140 pounds on a good day. Because of this, I am intimately familier with the ways and means of bullies. I am confident of my knowledge in this area. I viewed the situation, saw the bully, told him no, saw him off. I believe this was the correct response.
It may be, the topic of this message seems to imply, that some are in doubt about this. I am willing to discuss it, to listen to criticism, and to learn if given a lesson. Against the possibilty some might consider my act violent, I wish to note that the bully went away dissappointed, and no one got hit. I don’t know what a critic would have preferred happen, and that would be the place to start if criticism there be.
If you want to send this around, that will be fine.
Kertis
Drawing on the most authoritative source, Christ said to turn the other cheek. If struck upon the right. In context, a blow to the right cheek is presumed to be given with the back of the right hand. This sort of blow comes from a supeirior. In Christs’ day, that would be a Roman. Most Romans in Palestine then were soldiers. What Christ was asked was in actuality, “What shall we do if a Roman soldier abuses us?”. To this Christ said, “Turn the other cheek.”. In our context this translates to mean something other than; “What shall we do if a bully abuses us?” Christ was not being asked about bullies, He was being asked about Roman soldiers. The reason he was being asked was…some folks were looking for a way to “get rid of” him. Advocating violence toward Roman Soldiers would have gotten Christ crucified. As I recall, eventually something was phonied up.
Ghandi, as I recall, relied upon the spirit of compassion within the other to guide the “enemy” toward acting in a way the “enemy” himself, could accept. This does not work, when the “enemy” is deficient of compassion. As in the case of the sociopath. (Hi, Dad !)
Machiavelli, by contrast, advocted that it is better to be feared than to be loved. Sound familier? It should. That is what happened Friday, and what is being discussed here.
There is more, but I can anticipate my critics only so far. It may be that my attitude does not comport. That is for others to decide, and I will abide. I am not going to demand to be included, as that would be silly.
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This I did before finishing my first cup of coffee the next morning. Note the degree of concern I have that the police might notice my behaviour. So much for which shoe the foot is in, re : childish.
As for the reason the flagwavers are, it seems, ALLWAYS on the lookout for situations to instigate, my view is – they are men of action. Men who view activity as if it were progress. This world has allways been cursed with such.
As for why an upturned flag should draw such venom, That would be because the flagwavers have stolen (OK, Misappropriated) our National Symbol for use as thier own, and are excited to see that symbol taken back. Because they consider the flag to be thiers, stolen fair and square, they feel it is being stolen from them, AND THAT THIS IS WRONG…somehow.
Can you top that, Ornat?
And have you considered perhaps visiting Leftys’ after the Friday Afternoon Show? If you want to explore differance, search for common ground, explain your views, patiently listen, etcetera, It is certianly possible to do that. Over wine, even. If you have considered, why did you decide against? If you have not considered, shouldn’t you have? Shouldn’t you?
Themguys.
Why don’t you grow up, your comments are childish.
1st of all my mother is dead and I would appreciate you not talking about her.
If you have a problem with my spelling then come out and say so, as if spelling is so important. What you couldn’t find anything else to comment on, and you claim I need to think like an adult.
Oh, ornat, I am so glad your Mommy came home and helped you compose a correct sentence.
Now, that’s much better.
Does Mommy help you spell all your words?
Maybe Mommy could teach you to THINK like an adult too?
Uh, one more thing, what exactly did Scott sever?
Sorry for my incorrectness on the first try but here is the corrected so you can read it.
“Terrorism,” has a singular goal. What is it?
Killing innocent people? Incorrect. Death is only the byproduct.
A Show of strength? No. A weaker persuasion doesn’t exist.
To cause terror? Correct, the goal of terrorism is to create terror and fear. Fear undermines faith in the establishment. It weakens the enemy from within…. causing unrest in the masses.
Write this down. Terrorism is not an expression of rage. Terrorism is a political weapon. Remove the government’s facade of infallibillity, and you remove its people’s faith.
“Terrorism,” has a singular goal. What is it?
Killing innocent people? Incorrect. Death is only the byproduct.
A Show of strength? No. A weaker persuasion doen’rexist.
To cause terror? Correct, the goal of terrorism is to create terror and fear. Fear undermines faithin the establishment. It weakens the enemy from within…. causing unrest in the masses. Write this down. Terrorism is not an expression of rage. Terrorism is a political weapon. Remove thegovernment’s facade of infallibillity, and you remove its people’s faith.
Scott.
I think President Bush did a super job with his speech also. If you are out on Friday night in Bandon from 4:00 to 6:00 stop by and say hello. That is if you aren’t already there. I would like to shack your hand and say thank you for your service. I persume you servered, but if not you are serving in some way against the hoard that claims to support the troops through blasting our governmet and helping support the enemy just like the other nut jobs did in Vietnam. Some of them were probably protesting then anyway. Still the same dog chasing its tail, and biting fleas.
Well, my last post did not get posted. Maybe I am too smart for you guys.
I did want to say that I surely enjoyed President Bush’s speech this evening and I am very thankful that the American electorate had the wisdom to elect him over the two left wing losers you guys wanted for president. I can only imagine what this country would look like if Algore and Mr. Turncoat Kerry had been elected.
But I know that you guys really do not believe in the democratic process which elected Bush twice. You have whined for almost seven years now. Frankly I am getting sick of people like you and I really do believe you ought to go to, maybe, France or Russia. But then you would not have anything to do, would you?
Themguys,
Blah Blah Blah. You had your 1st sentence correct we did elect President Bush into office the 1st time and the 2nd. We now have a dem majority in congress and things still haven’t changed. So what is your point? And yes I do believe that we as the super power of the world have the responsiblity to be the policemen of the world. As you can see that world peace can’t be attained by a group that you guys supported to come to Bandon “Eyes wide open” they have been around for 90 years trying to gain world peace and I would ask how is that going for them? Also we have a disfuntional UN that has done nothing, just ask the people of Darfur. If you let things like this to happen you are just as guilty. Shame on you.
Magix, read it like you want to thats ok that way you can make a comment. If you couldn’t get the jist of my comment the fact that i don’t like war just as anyone else, the fact that we have a part of this world that would like to see you and I dead at what ever cost so I would go to war on them. Just as, if you were hurting your family I would not sit back and just watch as you would if I were hurting my family. I would do any thing possible to stop you because if I didn’t stop you with hurting people close to you you would have no remorse about harming me.
You support the troops by protesting about how your government is doing because you don’t like the current administration. I say that because you weren’t out there protesting before now were you. So get your story straight. Maybe you could let me know what dictionary you use to define Patriot. I don’t think you pass for one at all.
Excuuuuuuse me! No that is not all I do or any of us that stand or sit each Friday for 2 hours, we also write letters, email and send packages to troops that we don’t even know. When is the last time you did any such thing? I doubt you have, to complete strangers let alone relatives.
So you think that you support the troops with the hate signs and the other garbage you spew. We have had several soldier still on active duty that have served in Iraq and Afganistan stop by and thank us, they always ask what are those guys doing protesting. So where is your suport for the troops, all I see and others see is your hatered for this country driven by political rediric. You seem to think that the likes of a left-
wing nut job is the way to go, so continue to listen to Olbermann.
WMD, dilivery of and threat to anyone, you better go back and re-read Clinton stating that they had WMD. Also others from the Democrates, so why aren’t you concerned about those lies. Because you don’t like the present administration you forget what has been stated. pretty good coverup on your part. You are just as to blame for all of this.
One reason they aren’t fighting in the military is they didn’t sign on the dotted line in the ALL VOLUNTER MILITARY. You kids went for the money for collage and now you are crying because they have to fight in a war. You should have taught them better.
ornat?
There’s only one group of people who are directly responsible for taking freedom and peace from the masses. And you voted them into power, as we all did.
Name one other country who is invading and killing innocent civilians half-way around the world, then blame THEIR neighbors for “interfering” in OUR occupation? What arrogance, who the hell do we think we are? Dictating freedom and Democracy around the world, while at the same time, shredding OUR Constitution, in the name of protecting us from all threats, when THEY are the threat? Can you get your brain around that one?
ornat doesn’t believe wars should be fought but sits in an armchair for an hour a week to ‘support the troops’!?!?
I am proud to support the troops by fighting to bring them home and calling attention to the mismanagement of the occupation that threatens their life and limb! It is my patriotic duty to fight for the troops as someone who loves her country and the kids we allowed to be sent over there
I forgot, ornat, can you tell me the name of one Iraqi that somehow threatened your safety and liberty, and security? Oh, if you still want to believe they had WMDs, or the ability to deliver them, please also, tell me how many aircraft Iraq got off the ground when we invaded them, please? Oh, and how many ships of their Navy did they launch? Oh, I forgot, they didn’t have any, did they?
Not one, not one.
Keep waving that flag for freedom there, Skippy.
Excuuuuuuse me! You sitting in a chair, waving a flag every Friday, shows” you support the troops” as they march to their death, huh? Good plan. How’s that working for our troops?
George Bush has 17, do you hear that? Seventeen military age relatives, including two daughters, NOT ONE OF THEM is serving in Georges’ occupation of Iraq. And they never will, but yours will. Do you think Georges’ loved ones are somehow more precious than yours? Or mine? Please answer that one question for me, will you? And, please, don’t give me the drivel about “we all do our part”. They are rich white kids, that’s why, they will never fight, just like George, and Dick, and Bill O’Reilly, and Hannity, and all the other loud voices, urging you and every other Patriot to send YOUR kids to do the bleeding and the dying, for their profit. PLease, turn off Foux News, watch Keith Olbermann for one week on MSNBC. You just might learn enough to get as angry as some of us are.
“REFUSE TO FIGHT A WAR STARTED BY MEN WHO REFUSED TO FIGHT WAR.
I will not discuss war with you as I also believe that wars shouldn’t be fought. But the challenge comes when you have people that want to take away freedom and peace that most people want then what is the conclusion you would, have to do? You ask what peace is: I’ll tell you it isn’t what your group is about. I sit every Friday and do not let you kind or any one else sway me from the fact that I am there for the troops. Not showing how much I hate this war, administration and this country like all of you. You all should be ashamed of calling yourselves Americans.
ornat, do you believe Iraq had anything to do with 9/11? Do you believe Iraq had WMDs? Do you believe after four years of ocupation in Iraq that America is safer for that occupation?
One more thing, Mr. Ornat, I guess I don’t know, can YOU tell me what “true peace” looks like? Please.
Man alive, what a powerful woman! If you check the photo, the wind was blowing hard, the flag is straight out, if The Man Who Brought Down The Soviet Union, had kept out of her face, perhaps The Man Who Brought Down The Soviet Union, wouldn’t have had the “flag pushed into his face”! How do you push a waving piece of cloth, Einstein?
But hey, Ornat, let’s get a dialogue going here on the issues of the war, what you say? I’m up for it, let’s really discuss the issues, are you up for it? Without name calling.
No one invited Mr Glasnost to cross the street and once there he wouldn’t leave.
You people look for any excuse to start a riot if it wasn’t a flag it would be any of the other excuses you have already used
Well, I guess if you want to leave out the part about the person that yelled at the fellow and wanted to talk to him and then kept pushing the flag in his face that is ok. Then maybe you should keep your young daughters out of this. Let them grow up with out bias to hatred for this country. Why don’t you show them what real peace is and just support the troops instead of throwing all of your political trash out there. You give peace a bad name.
Hard to ignore someone who is grabbing something out of your hand and yelling at you inches away from you face. Or worse, rudely addressing my young daughters!
Stay on your own side of the street and we ignore you quite easily.
Less alcohol is needed for the ‘flag wavers’!
And some fact checking – those signs trying to tie 9/11 to Iraq are false and misleading but we don’t run to that corner and try to take it away from them.
Humpty dumpty on the wall was a great touch though, we may use that iconic image in an upcoming pro-peace poster
VFP claim to be for peace and want to start a fight each week. Why don’t you tell the truth for a change. I know that some of the SUPPORT THE TROOPS AND THEIR MSSION guys have to spout off, but you have the choice to just ignore them, why don’t you if you stand for peace. I don’t think you stand for peace you stand for hatred of the current administration and the government. You still take the pay from them because you are owed it in your mind.
The need for more medication is needed for the VFP people and I’m not sure what is needed for the upside down flag woman.
Alcohol fuels a lot of the thinking on that flag waver corner
Yeah, you are probably right. Rather than admit they may have been wrong in the beginning they dig in their heals like the “Decider”. Meanwhile more troops die while people like these make statements about “dying in vain”.
How does the mother of a fallen soldier rationalize the deaths of more soldiers as confirmation of their child’s death? Is it misery loves company?
Magix, you are so kind.
I call it deliberate ignorance.
Or sustained ignorance.
Or, oh well, I could go on and on.
Thank you and welcome!
It is hard to determine the real cause of the dispute. Both sides love the troops and pray for their safe return. The rub appears, as always when the warrior and the war are confused. Confusing US forces with US foreign policy is really at the heart of the disagreement between these groups.
Those of us with MFSO or VFP or WIB view these as separate issues while the ‘flag wavers’ regard them as one.
There is more to this obviously. Last night I photographed a poster whereby these people still believe that there was a link between Saddam Hussein and the 9/11 attacks. They may even still believe there were or are WMDs. Perhaps this is unfair but I believe this is a studious incompetence on their part
Simply amazing, people advocating for peace should be treated as such a threat to the security of this country by the very people professing such devotion to the same country.
I’m glad to hear the Bandon police are keeping on top of the situation. It’s very important to have this kind of communication with the local police departments.